Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-03.txt

Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> Sun, 23 October 2022 22:39 UTC

Return-Path: <ekr@rtfm.com>
X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C406AC14F736 for <gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 23 Oct 2022 15:39:52 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.903
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.903 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ioio-gjUItKw for <gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 23 Oct 2022 15:39:48 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-io1-xd32.google.com (mail-io1-xd32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d32]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EEA89C14F733 for <gendispatch@ietf.org>; Sun, 23 Oct 2022 15:39:48 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-io1-xd32.google.com with SMTP id q196so6467946iod.8 for <gendispatch@ietf.org>; Sun, 23 Oct 2022 15:39:48 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=ZfNbeA2Nw5VIZYEnhKZ1ARia0F4gqnv4UkvOEc3GI1g=; b=1BGxUcd8M7frvqJ8cYWRaSP6DoF2X4lCWn19E3odBFd+X5xEm1aa2gXVEGjWdXVXjp 8SZ9GJCp4PExKNNj2EMflckyN97AB8ljWi0oF/w/THj/K1h3WngF/FitZwlvKsO1CZdt uP6OiM0+HR+O1I35qkJYd2nvY8uSfLBTrL3VhoFhTodn9NqALXa0r4hBnXMdXH5IGw8O OKnnUNk4pUqMwGawbytElU89H6se0b1IFt99uBAXQZ9tVDTOwdNIi759r3qM13HbIGSn bChzvK4IRS81i5B3S+iUR6wUETmxBLG/cQ0MXq8R3lB7Sx8oCzWd0lzHgFOv905u2VRp +0JQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=ZfNbeA2Nw5VIZYEnhKZ1ARia0F4gqnv4UkvOEc3GI1g=; b=qKw4g2XlEn51ecg2aDKJdt5hes55JcrA3yHWpWNA53MKBDiivG/vAgFeZt8Xb/96TE IvscSlYqfqLnVJeAb1YCgxJEuQrMNErjlLcnCRXaTswrwIhqfpd1yNVcIGLq3sgwNN6e shOmCp3WTrb5EcYKwMspiQowMwzRQp4ipSdnLYH2C/9KCpZhHebWfrokOJSkVAwRMwbq FMtpVWMQ0EO5Vw9HHf3dYmQP3WrGwppsD3fHnYoUsthVo1Pmn4jHwCw9hC0pn3cBrp/y iFHyPbHpVqUnFBplF7G3YP98pPEL59si6FA4bVHonejS/OJDSSt7e7KX8+pChZr8FuxI UZUw==
X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf0OYXyTYGIWn7yw588ZHY+sXGL1XCUxeUYhp7sh20KD/gOBFZX1 2s16iS2mb7Xn7p7Nj+q9begMG1JL+ezU6nOW3NmgLg==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM5524tIHEUs+DlGycCyGIcY/sxmuHj/O+k1dyAVbXnLD3H0q17akcIxKcIMmL9W/evHgHJhrsYDktq8zQIFUcE=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:dd6:b0:363:f22b:e969 with SMTP id m22-20020a0566380dd600b00363f22be969mr20477565jaj.148.1666564787579; Sun, 23 Oct 2022 15:39:47 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <20221023031849.135234D275E4@ary.local> <58e68b60-0b62-ab99-3f07-8ec689680347@cs.tcd.ie> <3BC93084-A5BF-4A5B-A503-BDD003EB35F5@mnot.net> <1efe75ce-9c8d-882f-4cd9-017e03a95e09@cs.tcd.ie> <CAChr6Syq_+O=RxzhTKQPyLLuKKC_GHqWZ3eOuGa3od11OCfLkA@mail.gmail.com> <f24f4195-51d9-1491-6140-7aae6991ad91@cs.tcd.ie>
In-Reply-To: <f24f4195-51d9-1491-6140-7aae6991ad91@cs.tcd.ie>
From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2022 15:39:11 -0700
Message-ID: <CABcZeBPCEZXJKsJ0Luo-y8AYPQvCpzEEvXX1iSPakS2QfhfWSQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Cc: Rob Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com>, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com>, gendispatch@ietf.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000028c18c05ebbb5aa8"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/O2hSE28JIAYbNU6eoODvjRMb24s>
Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-03.txt
X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39
Precedence: list
List-Id: General Area Dispatch <gendispatch.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/gendispatch>, <mailto:gendispatch-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/gendispatch/>
List-Post: <mailto:gendispatch@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:gendispatch-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch>, <mailto:gendispatch-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2022 22:39:52 -0000

It seems to me that you are making two arguments, one of which I think I
agree with and
one I do not.

As noted in my review, I think the language in the draft is overbroad, and
I agree with
you that discussing whether a specific technical choice tends to reinforce
or reduce
entry barriers should in fact be in scope.

I disagree, however, with your argument that as an academic you don't need
to
avoid certain topics, because, as noted by mnot and others, the question
is what conditions this creates for others. You are, of course, free to
raise
those topics in your own newsletter, Twitter, etc. but the question is what
are appropriate topics for the IETF.

-Ekr


On Sun, Oct 23, 2022 at 3:24 PM Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
wrote:

>
> (BTW, with regards the dispatch question I agree with ekr.)
>
> On 23/10/2022 23:11, Rob Sayre wrote:
> > I can't think of anything I would be interested in, but maybe I don't
> > understand your position.
>
> I read the draft as telling us we ought not discuss whether
> or not some proposed protocol design re-enforces the mobile
> OS duopoly.
>
> S.
>
> --
> Gendispatch mailing list
> Gendispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch
>