Re: [Gendispatch] Let's restore and evolve our plenary function (Re: Ending ietf@ietf.org)
Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com> Sun, 04 April 2021 15:15 UTC
Return-Path: <moore@network-heretics.com>
X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E64183A16C7 for <gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 08:15:43 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.898
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Piarrv5YQueC for <gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 08:15:38 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C074A3A16C6 for <gendispatch@ietf.org>; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 08:15:38 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 187AB5C0040 for <gendispatch@ietf.org>; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 11:15:36 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 04 Apr 2021 11:15:36 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=Jv/hgv ++SuldVVI0MRktq7roNz9yRlPdvUGgAeiEcrI=; b=hpbbkBVjIbOjMy/rSNwX1C EcYub7hRH4BL7HiVM+AYZEjhAi0eFmjjWUQ7e0TTVfVdlUfg9QnnSsdVuHShxiiQ P7K/h11acZbYGwOiqVEzjrvckKb3PI/4W6Or0OdCX5p1xnFV54gL6Kt+f+PwjCDb uUShgss0bGtyf5w0RCnvPyIpTU8wIb8mfMfRB2VV1FWRfFVlTMIHPTUozQXuCjRg CtMR362N8hY91XhmyuavowJZMAk6POz1G1XdqE856iBS1TdtH5ZQ7ZDFBDsOxkzg j4E0a0o4OJcBuDF74t4/7G2RoWofw0Y8n6f/n5FmIAmFPQTs+1YKrgCFFtor8aLQ ==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:F9hpYGpPiAyeImD1SsDYhSg-ZpI4Mo4mWDAOUxJ7sM1BiswUVVCZbA> <xme:F9hpYEooETfjRwWsGHkLwxEENFze_25KuvYuzsZl1ZfvpqrGs2bjkPR-PWH2757OB yp1sNMd7MqVSA>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrudejtddgkeehucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgesrgdtre ertdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfiho rhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepveefteduieegtd elvddvtddufeejjeffvdefteejieeulefgtdfggedtffektedunecukfhppedutdekrddv vddurddukedtrdduheenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrih hlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:F9hpYLP7GCT7_8X65atf74KH7L5xg7UdE_-dJVlPpbL17CJ2eOZJhg> <xmx:F9hpYF5prVjiJccEV4SyCalMSGZ4yikx-otJEEL1QauSwpoi0ddv9w> <xmx:F9hpYF4VbHGJSlowwz8X0gTeUPvEhaTKHenDOMV0HY5zdCzZ3alWhQ> <xmx:GNhpYAKM8hZ3eHeBpeyUSg0b-NbmzZcS3-2o9fg66cC-10syPUhthQ>
Received: from [192.168.1.118] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id DFEE8240057 for <gendispatch@ietf.org>; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 11:15:34 -0400 (EDT)
To: gendispatch@ietf.org
References: <CAChr6Sxa6uY+nOzWW=MSXP_ekLaBSCTfjC2YcURi+kX0h2X+Rg@mail.gmail.com> <1CBE5840-3CAE-4EAA-9CF2-E0FFDAAAA6FD@akamai.com> <b5166f9c-f79d-1e45-1e6f-a12e90ce3aa5@cs.tcd.ie> <CAJU8_nXiw99gwZ754+hBZ65CD07QVGF3evkT71iWk5_F+qsm5A@mail.gmail.com> <94D04C28-AFE8-4969-BF01-27EC68B19FDB@cisco.com> <1E9D993E-5B50-4A13-90DD-1302D7AF8CF2@cable.comcast.com>
From: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
Message-ID: <de8b4c68-3725-291b-bf54-81fb8fadf105@network-heretics.com>
Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2021 11:15:34 -0400
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <1E9D993E-5B50-4A13-90DD-1302D7AF8CF2@cable.comcast.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------CDF83718B09308CF39C545B2"
Content-Language: en-US
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/Tfppnnk49cof_bEsVOg0rPyJ7uE>
Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Let's restore and evolve our plenary function (Re: Ending ietf@ietf.org)
X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: General Area Dispatch <gendispatch.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/gendispatch>, <mailto:gendispatch-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/gendispatch/>
List-Post: <mailto:gendispatch@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:gendispatch-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch>, <mailto:gendispatch-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2021 15:15:44 -0000
On 4/4/21 7:37 AM, Livingood, Jason wrote: >> Let’s not just allow for new possibilities here; let’s seek them. > I like the idea of seeking new solutions, speaking personally. I also think we unduly constrain our thinking when regularly assuming that collaboration & discussion requires email - time to perhaps move some types of interactions to new technical forms. As far as I can tell, Dave Crocker and Jon Postel and their colleagues in the late 1980s had a much better handle on effective interpersonal communications than the developers of any of the other excuses for collaborative media that I've experienced to date. At the same time, clearly email doesn't need to be stuck in the late 1990s. There's room for some improvement in email that takes advantage of better connectivity (in most but not all parts of the world), broader availability of server resources, perhaps ease of management, and so forth. A lot of the effectiveness of an email-based approach depends on what user agents people use, which in turn influence their email reading habits. For instance, I have no problem ignoring messages from threads that I don't find interesting, whereas other people seem to experience those messages as a huge burden. I expect that the difference is related to the tools we are each using. But there's a lot of inertia around the user agents and email systems that people use, and for multiple reasons it's hard for people to change tools. I fully expect that whatever new ideas IETF came up with would eventually need a web interface, so that users would have multiple choices for how to access that system. Keith
- [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Kyle Rose
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Rob Sayre
- [Gendispatch] Let's restore and evolve our plenar… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Andrew Campling
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Andrew Campling
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Gendispatch] Let's restore and evolve our pl… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Let's restore and evolve our pl… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Let's restore and evolve our pl… Livingood, Jason
- Re: [Gendispatch] Let's restore and evolve our pl… Livingood, Jason
- Re: [Gendispatch] Let's restore and evolve our pl… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Let's restore and evolve our pl… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] Let's restore and evolve our pl… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Rob Wilton (rwilton)
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Let's restore and evolve our pl… Pete Resnick
- Re: [Gendispatch] Let's restore and evolve our pl… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Jay Daley
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Jay Daley
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org <-- the di… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org <-- the di… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Nico Williams
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org <-- the di… Pete Resnick
- [Gendispatch] IETF transparency and diversity Tony Rutkowski
- Re: [Gendispatch] IETF transparency and diversity Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] IETF transparency and diversity Tony Rutkowski
- Re: [Gendispatch] IETF transparency and diversity Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org <-- the di… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] IETF transparency and diversity Tony Rutkowski
- Re: [Gendispatch] IETF transparency and diversity Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org <-- the di… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org <-- the di… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] IETF transparency and diversity Mark Nottingham
- Re: [Gendispatch] IETF transparency and diversity Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] IETF transparency and diversity Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org <-- the di… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org <-- the di… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org <-- the di… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] IETF transparency and diversity Tony Rutkowski
- Re: [Gendispatch] IETF transparency and diversity Nico Williams
- Re: [Gendispatch] IETF transparency and diversity Jay Daley
- Re: [Gendispatch] IETF transparency and diversity Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Gendispatch] IETF transparency and diversity Tony Rutkowski
- Re: [Gendispatch] IETF transparency and diversity Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] IETF transparency and diversity Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] IETF transparency and diversity Andrew Campling