Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification for draft-ecahc-moderation-00.txt

Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> Mon, 17 July 2023 20:52 UTC

Return-Path: <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05BC3C15198F for <gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 17 Jul 2023 13:52:41 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.098
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yy37I0Zzh_br for <gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 17 Jul 2023 13:52:40 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-oi1-x236.google.com (mail-oi1-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::236]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C618C15198D for <gendispatch@ietf.org>; Mon, 17 Jul 2023 13:52:40 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-oi1-x236.google.com with SMTP id 5614622812f47-3a1c162cdfeso3503510b6e.2 for <gendispatch@ietf.org>; Mon, 17 Jul 2023 13:52:40 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1689627159; x=1692219159; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:cc:to :content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=tFSX/sBvmWEHbtJ/vxfoYW1TzhOySH6PEwOno//hZQM=; b=fR8r2ngEOkrNNALF6ZOdJJGTdj5JbhN/hL8GopDDx6AYaSuOlAfYPBA18ZWU07wWfh SVHxMjjTHOsEEPXy1qvLX1Lwrb2HkK7OJukgr5rcRIQNhl0EaJLDuj4b98USPtcgxcXJ QiRzI/LDQ7KSHcrCntLkrz87+1Heq91U7wy8NsdKLGobyzgalbamvL0u3qLvJpjAE6U7 TGP5TvkJgVbwVdHEE3DHmmkkBSao1hT8F9XU9MvT9ygGcR38M0n53GsnUxT+56L2yAi/ 4o2ARTKpphEsGITLHys9MouBPzy7GZhZpEh99/N2n3a4oxNdvW/T/vD82ShFM9Ff68oL QACg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1689627159; x=1692219159; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:cc:to :content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=tFSX/sBvmWEHbtJ/vxfoYW1TzhOySH6PEwOno//hZQM=; b=OTumxGSH6QBKhUlqpWeXGNVdeiDdw3iWWYn6032yFWcgmZWL71cWGC2H1RfXQ7+MSw shM1+05GnYILgq2YefunwX4/FPLDe0XvwMfzaTteKaBXxm+2V6ceJy/UtLJ0eKWqjt9T 130EIfEikE7RVq+BbNeSxE6MCIHOsuF+NzVtUXEEVmOn27CstkUzuXQ7WEWoTO4NyGCN j5jSQv6hXN5NfhBfzpCsUZYo6ypBbNyUWjOmJTpZatZsRh4UmExOmMpeP8ZkUsbfrh0r fl6+SrgOCCbiChIrZLRqBLpPDYqS82nq9qznJNu6NRiM+lPmuFjlTJo+8iIUokCa4Eft cQDA==
X-Gm-Message-State: ABy/qLaml4FopiUIKKGPTk+4wRf40SlDiZLj+gKlfWtT8RRfZ4Z/h6pp hLyIOCtKoixVKZcb64AQDig=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: APBJJlH2pBkc3zg1Gbn05dJeOmgEqu11T9kXRZaqGj9xVCv5xQZwnzwG81wmuibhRR7zASEksMR9yQ==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:1701:b0:3a1:ed1b:9541 with SMTP id bc1-20020a056808170100b003a1ed1b9541mr15611199oib.40.1689627159422; Mon, 17 Jul 2023 13:52:39 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPV6:2406:e003:10cc:9901:b2e1:1101:7ba7:19fd? ([2406:e003:10cc:9901:b2e1:1101:7ba7:19fd]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k133-20020a636f8b000000b00528da88275bsm226726pgc.47.2023.07.17.13.52.37 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 17 Jul 2023 13:52:39 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <631cec37-b57c-af20-b288-1287566515b8@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2023 08:52:34 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.10.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com>, John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com>
Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" <gendispatch@ietf.org>
References: <168866528948.9864.11683631235677115587@ietfa.amsl.com> <C923D27E-85C3-4E57-A7D1-7850F0D82703@eggert.org> <F588647C-A9E1-40EF-8F7A-648221C5FAA3@akamai.com> <CABcZeBMxq0BCMqTZ49BB=W+ka1X1uLxd5HjcfKmeQ5i3TZWWFw@mail.gmail.com> <F5DB78AB-A5D8-408A-956D-8599DD6B9641@mnot.net> <798e2268-9035-222a-8d9a-0c723ddd2acc@gmail.com> <CABcZeBMwthcU7SQXqYo-O9MHDzRXk6QJXqz_qb2d9BQeXgaeWQ@mail.gmail.com> <EEEF2745-6091-4953-AC56-175D4772F5A5@piuha.net> <CABcZeBN2KU2cvSqOhkotYLsucWOn=KLGoyA8O3RCP_Lm5=h7bg@mail.gmail.com> <c34ce6bb-577c-f2bf-1e61-850b415840b2@taugh.com> <661009214.34187.1689602758055@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <661009214.34187.1689602758055@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/VdmgzKaXRsn3oIKYiyVB-r-Cpe4>
Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification for draft-ecahc-moderation-00.txt
X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39
Precedence: list
List-Id: General Area Dispatch <gendispatch.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/gendispatch>, <mailto:gendispatch-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/gendispatch/>
List-Post: <mailto:gendispatch@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:gendispatch-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch>, <mailto:gendispatch-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 20:52:41 -0000

Vittorio,
On 18-Jul-23 02:05, Vittorio Bertola wrote:
> 
> 
>> Il 17/07/2023 02:39 CEST John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com> ha scritto:
>>
>> On the lists I run, the rule is "don't be annoying."  If people don't get
>> the hint after a warning or two, good bye.  I realize we need more process
>> than that, but I wouldn't want a whole lot more than that.
> 
> A dictator-moderator is usually the best method to handle this, as long as the dictator is benevolent, i.e. someone who has high reputation and authoritativeness among the community of participants, and who is personally more keen on building bridges than on burning them.
> 
> It's hard to codify as a requirement "the moderators should be picked among the most respected and nice IETF participants", but perhaps a hint to this point would be useful.
> 
> By the way, I also found the section on diversity lacking. It's not just a matter of covering timezones, but of being able to notice when problems between individuals that are arguing on list might be due to cultural diversity, and finding the best angle to calm down people depending on their background.

It's remarkably hard to discuss that last point without stereotyping, but I certainly recall a period when there was a very noticeable clash between the very frank and abrupt discussion style of early IETF participants (which was a style I found familiar from my dealings with the particle physics community) and the much more indirect and polite discussion style of other communities that joined in the late 1990s. This led to people being either very frustrated, very offended, or both. I *think* we do better now than we did all those years ago, but the problem that Vittorio describes is still real.

    Brian