Re: [Gendispatch] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-01.txt

[Brian E Carpenter <[e-mail]>]

Joel,
On 07-Nov-21 14:30, Joel M. Halpern wrote:
> Finding the right balance on the wording of this issue is something I
> expect the discussion once dispatched will need to do.
> 
>   From what the lawyers tell me, I believe this kind of discussion does
> head towards incurring significant risks.  So having guidelines that
> help us stay on the right side of that seems desirable to me.

Help us understand. Since the IETF's motto is rough consensus and running 
code, and our participants are individuals not company representatives (and who therefore simply *cannot* make agreements about companyy products), how can discussing and agreeing to implement certain features and test interoperability *before* reaching rough consensus conceivably breach competition law?

That the IETF is not a venue for companies to make agreements with each other has been established, if not since 1986, then certainly since 1992 (RFC1310): "Participation is by individual technical contributors, rather than formal representatives of organizations."

I do not understand why the legal advice given in 1992, 102 years after the USA's Sherman Act, needs revisiting.

The same goes for the other new doctrine that I queried in https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/VTxH4Rx_NJPgBeY9FHphdYJZYAw/ .

I'm having second thoughts about whether this should be dispatched at all. Since the formalisation of the standards process almost 30 years ago was done with clear awareness of US and EU competition law, I'm far from convinced that it's the IETF's job to give people advice in this area. Participants who are employees should get such advice from their employers. 
We certainly shouldn't be publishing advice that has a chilling effect on 
rough consensus and running code.

    Brian

> 
> Yours,
> Joel
> 
> On 11/6/2021 9:07 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>>
>> Hi Joel,
>>
>> This paragraph stood out to me in this document.
>>
>>      There should be no agreement among participants to implement or to
>>      adhere to IETF standards, or any discussions as to when 
participants
>>      will begin to offer products conforming to IETF standards.
>>
>> In groups I am in, WG participants pretty routinely discuss shipping
>> timelines and often try to coordinate changes so that they happen
>> at similar times (e.g., disabling SHA-1, rolling out new code that
>> can interop).
>>
>> -Ekr
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 8:37 AM Joel M. Halpern <[e-mail]
>> <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
>>
>>      This is a significant revision of the draft on IETF antitrust
>>      guidelines.  We tried to address what we heard in the previous
>>      feedback,
>>      and tightened the language related to legal issues.
>>
>>      Chairs, if it is possible I would like to present this for dispatching
>>      at the upcoming session.
>>
>>      Thank you,
>>      Joel
>>
>>
>>      -------- Forwarded Message --------
>>      Subject: I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-01.txt
>>      Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2021 08:15:16 -0700
>>      From: [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
>>      Reply-To: [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
>>      To: [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
>>
>>
>>      A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>>      directories.
>>
>>
>>                Title        
   : Antitrust Guidelines for IETF Particiants
>>                Authors         : Joel M. Halpern
>>                                  Brad Biddle
>>                                  Jay Daley
>>               Filename        : draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-01.txt
>>               Pages           : 8
>>               Date          
  : 2021-11-03
>>
>>      Abstract:
>>           This document provides guidance for IETF participants on compliance
>>           with antitrust laws and how to reduce antitrust risks in connection
>>           with IETF activities.
>>
>>
>>      The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>>      https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust/ <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust/>
>>
>>      There is also an HTML version available at:
>>      https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-01.html
>>      <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-01.html>
>>
>>      A diff from the previous version is available at:
>>      https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-01
>>      <https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-01>
>>
>>
>>      Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>      ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>      <ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/>
>>
>>
>>      _______________________________________________
>>      I-D-Announce mailing list
>>      [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
>>      https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
>>      <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce>
>>      Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
>>      <http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html>
>>      or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>>      <ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt>
>>
>>      --
>>      Gendispatch mailing list
>>      [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
>>      https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch
>>      <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch>
>>
>