Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@mail2.ietf.org Delivered-To: gendispatch@mail2.ietf.org Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2A9358224FA for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2025 00:06:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ietf.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.094 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.094 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_SAFE_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: mail2.ietf.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.co.uk Received: from mail2.ietf.org ([166.84.6.31]) by localhost (mail2.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z4CE-7BN2iUo for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2025 00:06:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic305-19.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic305-19.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.177.81]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (P-256) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D4DCD58224EC for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2025 00:06:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.co.uk; s=s2048; t=1756019198; bh=qja7RbuhGyuN8muLDdMKJ/G1m9yurjc3gEO4LBQAheM=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=DbcafXVZAYpmKs8OhiGdk7Du0YRdJisU5zChXHPnpBLpZkoR3xAZ497cbaY7ynhL4VcNHiEAPHeZDJwgV3XVLF62XqjQeUz3XE4Tn1bnaUMK4ytatHp7g0iyBLOqMS8K6JP3q4aLMfitBsGD+4MCpoRXJfiaqblKpvbWu18tbIZbVUO3i9iHw3IdlgmPFPpfzJrLNnFxtXvNYvszr5JpfVG68hl6yrHSuSg+LfRZoHCBlOThcOTP6wF1RWmDXYAcMOLvCnSyw3dA5ctcyL+LUQh6ZrWZGuLYCWBoy+Q5mx1zwirR/HeyZxWLSATsaZaHY1KjPEuP6iWWteuDars11g== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1756019198; bh=Hx6P4CaHcb7aVdm+tUUxPfSta7ESmHNZZQw7vinMuJh=; h=X-Sonic-MF:Date:From:To:Subject:From:Subject; b=adySvWhW5h83tiC7sl92c5U/HnlG1lznHQ8GD1b1kQB56TZ8U3pCfuDHxmzXIBTCd3ZnJGADsfLEJ/o+gM7mf9NL+z0u6yf4xaoTTEaIRhhhm9VYLZsbdMvkepQKEh2YdP5I595mYbFyburF9Y4k/6WpFtBNcDZrXHFunuFxSFxmIT6G0qE4BYiA9NUYgjYlmFCN7swCkLZXc9uh7JAX3tMVUiROKV+TEp/uJEtGDiDLhsHDVQjMEJ1sz0ZsjhClwZSSLbQYPX6ZOtR/bmCbXZ3klchc1m1ivr2j7IIKdGUPwr/3dEI79/6SSchSTovGt7dEBngoe82tbRN7Th/NGw== X-YMail-OSG: zRKEJsYVM1m.kzqV_DuEDZabWuxAbX9SFAegc4RpeIQsAWJpBDneL6wD9ZrVdqr nZgePW28hg77lUQEwfHHMI.W_OM467ntpx5kXA8hJ1hZ0Y5BOeGaDGw8K47JnMw65lbkFDjRbzWQ ATr1RCo.FmheqXLtXifDYgVLYoRhSzBJF5_8fqndSL1c6yqA0v1PEL214GPz_wTDWyfOc7odKKh4 tK_K87kbhfPGmDiHHjz2kureq3L39SBI9DGqrHSFaqmWacAl7ghxppEvyxTN4QDxTSOLpzTh2D3j kuZypq_usDZtEpZebH3cgdYCwjzD22s04cRgSEEIaW6P4H3aiieAUPkP_p6N3fOsXzrBqGlIrphZ 5tR0BxrNpciZnJZ5xnwDswqamE8c0O0R7d_BzwWMvqAR1Hvtw8yQrx8zzEQ.coI.WhBYaDHs5zqZ CZ1z3JUfjEBjFD0Ny_C0N4Chw5biVSDcpM9JQw_Vk9vn.eJ_6OwHGZhVGpC3uHcM7vAS8LNyWLUF rnf14KNDJ.S.3k2kP1HZr0Oau9N5AlHkz9wRtNsthn.XIt4GaCN83OI7jmGrbi2FFf2FcJMPK1pD qZgj3Uy0e1ljcef4p9XNGeV6_ji3RKoX2sSOH4aiG61Av8fK4AuFCpdHM3EtMSXk0SpQWjb88HJB c7K.s_KQr3PqRb32QOZelFuR_SWvD116c4wgK3LjGB.usH4.BZPMWP_BJaccYt2tGsGM1Zpxtm89 MhHN10vuJRCEDkXoFLpWeFPV3bfj7zI_GwsSSEqVEiIwfWQGhfuELzawD8VU4XvIAUQRQH0p5LWN ldtUcqN_R9awVeL7B8mT5wwpgPe.wliRXE_TQjFNJAUx1Pu5xfm.UZ6fDNR9VUrO1pVPmktb7YFQ cQKT5K2LMvu.SY6OCrOHZZEsibrerTWjEYJ5BpAi36_aLf_0i.ZrsYAT7aQrzp6_I3sotOlz68Us Xkd2NMcS2GeUeoD1SaPbDDRalL26_RV94IoA6mu72CycpNUStbnx8j4ayHnAw74eS8_2x0VaRPZ9 dfh2M3a9Ak8IYl0_wm2XPhutBS2DiX0qgJ0eEakwZnd40FORRlt6UMBXNd5rx3Y3sV4pI6ZvzClY 9I4xch42HF7oiqSyIuNPTNLbYi23sakHZlD2iDYWjhRJ6tdA5.6smNBIETlrSW7ZMMjYbOYZl.mX 0BFp8xJQh1RAF9CsLR7di_oKVXHyYGJKLXkwHZkl5YjnYbStlbtJnbwlDYbFEfSOnBkaZ1fMSCa8 _kRdVgmUz2UHaBTfi_z7VYKPN.Kg6t55_O1axJoZYlfywdpnFaVDRZkdiyK9NivBKuRt5erCrW34 bx.FLPNE6WO_xmw7RnKiPX1oYh3n3bNUIrmoe3GDvy0f.K3mnT.cD8_mB6PO_IMW0Q5XLjv5jNpG _X6u5K9Gl7ZQNcisrNZzUhvQgGp93G5LxFljxgQlgpi8Ti158RWYl4fc5aaR_zxMR_6NJc4DYjyD Dr9t49M93jcbqPA4FcOpUjmQgc2A7HGFluKBhNvMRhQ9oUP4fLxnZht8Hu5y.jHYK4CxkxPej722 gumtfUIwdRH_egw_k.JbKH4EYBUG366mFh4itkDzR_2ItMgWMgyo4gFdPy.ZIsx560IfQcF7.zym 1Tevq.165JFivTb4tYOhnFDytrreYrcYl7WOU7.AiMTyOND9pXIK9VqaCJ1lPcUEdCnq9ocWqUze ebeFJEPTQYEqAiGkQm.Tb_ps4fUcBQbLRWqtSriR12T6TIERSGmI8kMvjBbPuTJLaRFto7VuPZYI Rp9lUDAOHQ5yKj_.HFSuB1m9LNvXBGqMqFlSrflJb7zAzqri_VuhLvA7sdCnJRV89F3u8StYP8Q5 XQaGV0eAOgPcw604dae07olYSTdEUAnxoqu1VT.UQ05Wo7rr9dkyZ21R5NaEFbtafOpw3CXqjmQ5 eBP.pN40XvvtATgtdpq6oDxkhGmpcZHYG04YyaGfM.UxZKZnwNigqgYjWhU_cgJO_VzA.OMiSEhF WPP57JOWvxOvI76t4OvKLuyJSiETTiHAezueecCAHWyVMtDQDaSV.bDghkV3VfUABdjGJoevvLot RTYCQjEW1waQmi8BItm3uCX6BRCENBTGquRE6wHLpvI2iFbWea6YFO8EtOg_mmU3eXjFQK1og8Jz 9G_m1oBU0OZxLvgfyCEKN8srQ0RoSnR9qIBxTSFhXGwXkRKpt8H_4KibJKfB62PWeHKP16Wpm33v .ti_LV1VYP07BOMyoNcMlaq5gA9eYD7qg0svb1WxKH5kAghV5GfDKTrTGxrQN3knODJDZSUwdAaY z47.Iew0z9mSjSF0IxUb8RrHtF6hJr38o X-Sonic-MF: X-Sonic-ID: 1e2abf56-db3f-488d-8089-6b1e45a83431 Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic305.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 24 Aug 2025 07:06:38 +0000 Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2025 07:06:32 +0000 (UTC) From: To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , "adrian@olddog.co.uk" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Message-ID: <2118703976.825098.1756019192560@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: <175321803910.2040999.1047828794410431812@dt-datatracker-7ff4b97469-cdtd8> <04d701dbfba1$2a829930$7f87cb90$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_825097_291368657.1756019192557" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.24362 YahooMailIosMobile Message-ID-Hash: UABNMLVQTPMMNLVNCIRD4DV3HAJC3Y4Z X-Message-ID-Hash: UABNMLVQTPMMNLVNCIRD4DV3HAJC3Y4Z X-MailFrom: lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc6 Precedence: list Subject: =?utf-8?q?=5BGendispatch=5D_Re=3A_wiki_was_Re=3A_New_Version_Notification_fo?= =?utf-8?q?r_draft-bonica-gendispatch-exp-06=2Etxt?= List-Id: General Area Dispatch Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: ------=_Part_825097_291368657.1756019192557 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It is my belief is that the IETF should be using wiki technology extensivel= y, including in draft development. The current 'raise on issue about a draft=C2=A0on the mailing list - we've = listed=C2=A0your=C2=A0issue in github to kill this criticism=C2=A0- silence= everafter' isn't really working, is it? editing and discussion in a wiki with appropriate templates=C2=A0might brid= ge the separation between mailing list and github, while also lowering the = bar to participation for new contributors. Lloyd Woodlloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk On Thursday, July 24, 2025, 00:44, Rob Wilton (rwilton) wrote: Hi Adrian, Annoyingly for you, I=E2=80=99m not going to directly answer your question = (because I don=E2=80=99t know the answer), but wanted to say: =20 - I=E2=80=99m a strong proponent of documenting more operational practic= e on wiki pages, if they can be put somewhere sensible, and have owners who= keep them up to date. =C2=A0This is because I believe that having a large = set of BCP process documents does not make a good/easy end user interface f= or the consumers of this material (i.e., authors & IETF participants). - I think that there is some useful information in this document, and ge= tting it published somewhere would probably be helpful to the wider communi= ty. =20 =C2=A0 =20 Hence, my suggestion: =20 (i)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0go straight to a 4-week IETF last call of the= doc (if you can find a willing AD) =20 (ii)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0publish the agreed resultant text on wiki page. =20 (iii)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Or maybe publish on a WIP wiki page, and then last call a 1-= page doc containing a link to the wiki page content, and review and achieve= consensus on the content on the wiki. =20 =C2=A0 =20 I=E2=80=99m sure that some folks may be appalled at my suggestions of just = ignoring the IETF process and dispatch outcomes, but shrug, you=E2=80=99re = welcome. :-) Kind regards, Rob =20 =C2=A0 =20 =C2=A0 =20 From: Adrian Farrel Date: Wednesday, 23 July 2025 at 09:12 To: gendispatch@ietf.org Subject: [Gendispatch] FW: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-gendis= patch-exp-06.txt =20 Hi GenDispatch, It's been a while since this work was "dispatched" to a new mailing list wi= th the long-term dispatch outcome of "AD sponsored RFC or a wiki". Over the months that followed, we have revised the draft a number of times = following reviews and discussions on experiment-guidance@ietf.org, and we h= ave picked up some extra material (especially wrt Operational Consideration= s). At this point, with what the authors consider to be a complete document, we= 'd like to come back to the dispatch outcomes and ask whether this group ha= s further advice on "wiki or RFC". We can then bully the responsible AD to = do something. Cheers, Adrian -----Original Message----- From: internet-drafts@ietf.org =20 Sent: 22 July 2025 22:01 To: Adrian Farrel ; Ron Bonica Subject: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-gendispatch-exp-06.txt A new version of Internet-Draft draft-bonica-gendispatch-exp-06.txt has bee= n successfully submitted by Adrian Farrel and posted to the IETF repository. Name:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 draft-bonica-gendispatch-exp Revision: 06 Title:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IETF Experiments Date:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2025-07-22 Group:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Individual Submission Pages:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 10 URL:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-bo= nica-gendispatch-exp-06.txt Status:=C2=A0=C2=A0 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bonica-gendispat= ch-exp/ HTML:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-bonica-= gendispatch-exp-06.html HTMLized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-bonica-gendispatch-ex= p Diff:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 https://author-tools.ietf.org/iddiff?url2=3Dd= raft-bonica-gendispatch-exp-06 Abstract: =C2=A0=C2=A0 This document describes IETF protocol experiments and provides =C2=A0=C2=A0 guidelines for the publication of Experimental RFCs. The IETF Secretariat --=20 Gendispatch mailing list -- gendispatch@ietf.org To unsubscribe send an email to gendispatch-leave@ietf.org --=20 Gendispatch mailing list -- gendispatch@ietf.org To unsubscribe send an email to gendispatch-leave@ietf.org ------=_Part_825097_291368657.1756019192557 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It is my belief is that the IETF should be using wiki technology extensivel= y, including in draft development.

The current 'raise on= issue about a draft on the mailing list - we've listed your = ;issue in github to kill this criticism - silence everafter' isn't rea= lly working, is it?

editing and discussion in a wi= ki with appropriate templates might bridge the separation between mail= ing list and github, while also lowering the bar to participation for new c= ontributors.


Lloyd Wood
lloyd= .wood@yahoo.co.uk


On Thursday, July 24, 2025, 00:44, Rob Wilton (rwilton)= <rwilton=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Hi Ad= rian,

Annoyingly for you, I=E2=80=99m not going to directly answer your question = (because I don=E2=80=99t know the answer), but wanted to say:

=20
  • I= =E2=80=99m a strong proponent of documenting more operational practice on w= iki pages, if they can be put somewhere sensible, and have owners who keep them up to date.  This is because I believe that= having a large set of BCP process documents does not make a good/easy end = user interface for the consumers of this material (i.e., authors & IETF= participants).
  • I think that there= is some useful information in this document, and getting it published some= where would probably be helpful to the wider community.
=20

&nbs= p;

=20

Hence= , my suggestion:

=20

(i)          &nbs= p;       go straight to a 4-w= eek IETF last call of the doc (if you can find a willing AD)

=20

(ii)          &nb= sp;     publish the agreed r= esultant text on wiki page.

=20

(iii)          &n= bsp;    Or maybe publish on = a WIP wiki page, and then last call a 1-page doc containing a link to the w= iki page content, and review and achieve consensus on the content on the wiki.

=20

&nbs= p;

=20

I=E2= =80=99m sure that some folks may be appalled at my suggestions of just igno= ring the IETF process and dispatch outcomes, but shrug, you=E2=80=99re welc= ome. :-)

Kind regards,
Rob

=20

&nbs= p;

=20

&nbs= p;

=20

From: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Date: Wednesday, 23 July 2025 at 09:12
To: gendispatch@ietf.org <gendispatch@ietf.org>
Subject: [Gendispatch] FW: New Version Notification for draft-bonica= -gendispatch-exp-06.txt

=20

Hi GenDispatch,

It's been a while since this work was "dispatched" to a new mailing list wi= th the long-term dispatch outcome of "AD sponsored RFC or a wiki".

Over the months that followed, we have revised the draft a number of times = following reviews and discussions on experiment-guidance@ietf.org, and we h= ave picked up some extra material (especially wrt Operational Consideration= s).

At this point, with what the authors consider to be a complete document, we= 'd like to come back to the dispatch outcomes and ask whether this group ha= s further advice on "wiki or RFC". We can then bully the responsible AD to = do something.

Cheers,
Adrian

-----Original Message-----
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Sent: 22 July 2025 22:01
To: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>; Ron Bonica <rbonica@junip= er.net>
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-gendispatch-exp-06.txt
A new version of Internet-Draft draft-bonica-gendispatch-exp-06.txt has bee= n
successfully submitted by Adrian Farrel and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:     draft-bonica-gendispatch-exp
Revision: 06
Title:    IETF Experiments
Date:     2025-07-22
Group:    Individual Submission
Pages:    10
URL:      https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-bonica-gendispatch-exp-06.txt
Status:   https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bonica-gendispatch-exp/
HTML:     https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-bonica-gendispatch-exp-06.html HTMLized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-bonica-gendispatch-exp
Diff:     https://author-tools.ietf.org/iddiff?url2=3Ddraft-bonica-gendispatch-exp-06=

Abstract:

   This document describes IETF protocol experiments and provides=
   guidelines for the publication of Experimental RFCs.



The IETF Secretariat


--
Gendispatch mailing list -- gendispatch@ietf.org
To unsubscribe send an email to gendispatch-leave@ietf.org

=20
------=_Part_825097_291368657.1756019192557--