Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG
Dan Harkins <dharkins@lounge.org> Tue, 16 February 2021 17:25 UTC
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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 09:24:46 -0800
From: Dan Harkins <dharkins@lounge.org>
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To: Francesca Palombini <francesca.palombini=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "gendispatch@ietf.org" <gendispatch@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/pfBJAjYiZRa6rgDmHQmJj48ZGpk>
Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG
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Wow! Hi Francesca, On 2/16/21 8:49 AM, Francesca Palombini wrote: > Dan, > > I trust you can make your point and state your opinion without being purposely inflammatory. As always, although it is ok to disagree, it is not ok and does not lead to a productive discussion to put down other people's opinions in this way. > > [1] I do not find Jay's mail to be ascribing motives to specific people, he is comparing two different situations. No, he's comparing two different groups of people. In fact, he specifically says "people". I'm not sure how you can say he's comparing situations when he specifically says "people"! Let me quote him for you: "Having wealthy, credentialed, white people take the issue of diversity and inclusivity seriously enough to try to explicitly and publicly change their behaviours is to me neither patronising nor disempowering.... The alternative of wealthy, credentialed, white people not wishing to do that makes me wary that either they are racist, or sympathise with racists, or seek to diminish or ignore the historic impact of racism." Notice how he's not talking about situations. He's talking about people. And he's talking specifically about a certain class of people. And if that certain class of people doesn't take his issue "seriously enough" then he fears that they are racists or people who sympathize with racists or people who wish to "diminish or ignore the historic impact of racism". Situations? I'm sorry but no. Read his email again. > Also please do not refer to Jay's opinions as "platitudes" - I believe you can pass the message you want to pass without the denigratory characterization. I did not say that Jay's opinions were platitudes. What I said was that the statements of the "wealthy, credentialed, white people" were platitudes. I said that they needed to say the platitudes that Jay wanted to hear (otherwise he would assume his alternative that they're racists). Big difference. > [2] I do not think Martin's characterization of "obstructionist" is anything else than a statement that people don't want this wg to be created. I do not find the term offensive, but that might be because of the fact that I am not a native speaker. I don't find Martin's statement offensive either. I responded to Martin simply because what he said was pretty much exactly what Keith said. What's interesting is that you are responding to my statement to Martin and Jay but you are silent on Mark's response to Keith. What's your take on Mark's rebuke of Keith for saying "some people are more concerned with appearance than reality"? That's as inoffensive as Martin saying that some people are obstructionists here. Yet you don't feel compelled to tell Mark your feelings about his email! If you want to be the cop here then I think you need to walk your beat in a much less biased way. > If you find any email in the mailing list personally offensive, please reach out to the chairs and do not escalate. Because of the high volume and timezone difference there might be a delay dealing with it, but we are here for that. I'm not personally offended but I do think that your email is offensive in its selective target. Dan. > Thanks, > Francesca > > [1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/zNoAGb6-GAFRS-8YLCV_PsFc_2I/ > [2] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/bRuBH1Xe_UaMg385w4-pY7cbUz0/ > > On 16/02/2021, 00:58, "Gendispatch on behalf of Dan Harkins" <gendispatch-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of dharkins@lounge.org> wrote: > > > > On 2/15/21 3:25 PM, Salz, Rich wrote: > >> The thing I take issue with was directed at "people", a collection of > > persons. > > > > So you took it as individuals, and I took people, especially given the second paragraph, as members of an organization and he was talking about organizational statements. > > Well I actually said that those people can (partially) make up an > organization so I don't think our statements are too far off. I just > don't think that is terribly relevant. > > >> Why are you wading in to this Rich? > > Because I am trying to understand why some people are so opposed to this. > > Opposed to what? > > To be perfectly honest, if Keith hadn't been admonished I wouldn't have > said a thing. But if we're gonna have some rules here then I think it's > important that everyone play by them. So if it's not OK to say that some > people are more concerned with appearance than reality (and I guess it's > not OK even if it's true) then it's not OK to say that people who don't > mouth the platitudes that Jay wants to hear are racists, and it's not OK > for Martin to say that a few people are obstructionists. > > Of course I would be happy to allow all those statements to be freely > expressed on the list but then I like free speech, even that which upsets > others. Seems that is not a universal feeling here though. > > Dan. > > -- > "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to > escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > -- "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
- [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-rel… Sean Turner
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Bron Gondwana
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Rodney W. Grimes
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Mallory Knodel
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… John Levine
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Mallory Knodel
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… S Moonesamy
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… John Levine
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Rodney W. Grimes
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… S Moonesamy
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Jay Daley
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Jay Daley
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Bron Gondwana
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… S Moonesamy
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Rob Wilton (rwilton)
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Livingood, Jason
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Jay Daley
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… S Moonesamy
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Martin Thomson
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Jay Daley
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Jay Daley
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Mallory Knodel
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Francesca Palombini
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Francesca Palombini
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Pete Resnick
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Francesca Palombini
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Pete Resnick
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Bron Gondwana
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Niels ten Oever
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Niels ten Oever
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Niels ten Oever
- Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology… Eliot Lear
- [Gendispatch] revised (was: Re: draft charter tex… Sean Turner
- Re: [Gendispatch] revised (was: Re: draft charter… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Gendispatch] revised (was: Re: draft charter… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Gendispatch] revised (was: Re: draft charter… Mallory Knodel
- Re: [Gendispatch] revised (was: Re: draft charter… Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] revised (was: Re: draft charter… Livingood, Jason
- Re: [Gendispatch] revised (was: Re: draft charter… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Gendispatch] revised Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] revised (was: Re: draft charter… Bill Woodcock
- Re: [Gendispatch] revised Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] revised Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] revised (was: Re: draft charter… Bron Gondwana
- Re: [Gendispatch] revised Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] revised Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] revised Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] revised (was: Re: draft charter… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Gendispatch] revised Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] revised Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] revised Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] revised Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] revised Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] revised (was: Re: draft charter… Niels ten Oever
- Re: [Gendispatch] revised Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] revised Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] revised Brian E Carpenter
- [Gendispatch] New List (Was: revised) Pete Resnick
- Re: [Gendispatch] revised Mallory Knodel
- Re: [Gendispatch] revised Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] revised Mallory Knodel
- Re: [Gendispatch] revised Tony Rutkowski
- Re: [Gendispatch] revised Mallory Knodel
- Re: [Gendispatch] revised Pete Resnick
- Re: [Gendispatch] revised Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] revised Nico Williams
- Re: [Gendispatch] revised Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Gendispatch] revised Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] revised Nico Williams
- Re: [Gendispatch] revised STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: [Gendispatch] revised Nico Williams