Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt
Rob Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> Sat, 25 September 2021 03:00 UTC
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From: Rob Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 19:59:54 -0700
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To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Cc: Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>, GENDISPATCH List <gendispatch@ietf.org>, Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>, Lloyd W <lloyd.wood=40yahoo.co.uk@dmarc.ietf.org>, "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt
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Also in favor of publishing, but do agree that SAA is a rather pompous term for “moderator”. That wording doesn’t need to change now, though. thanks, Rob On Fri, Sep 24, 2021 at 7:19 PM Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote: > I am in favor of publishing this document. Those who would prefer some > more global change to the SAA process should instead propose those changes > in the form of a draft. > > -Ekr > > > On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 12:25 AM Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org> wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> On 2021-9-17, at 13:31, Lloyd W <lloyd.wood=40yahoo.co.uk@dmarc.ietf.org> >> wrote: >> > As a latecomer to this thread, and as someone with rather more recent >> > experience of the SAAs than most... section 4 says: >> > >> > A sergeant-at-arms (SAA) is an officer appointed by a deliberative >> > body to keep order during its meetings [SAA-WIKIPEDIA]. SAAs for the >> > IETF discussion list are appointed by the IETF Chair >> > >> > The contradiction here is obvious. An SAA is appointed by a >> deliberative body, >> > during its meetings, and the IETF Chair is not a deliberative body. >> >> I added this quote from Wikipedia, because SAA is a pretty US/UK-centric >> term, and I received feedback that it is confusing to participants from >> other regions when they first encounter it. >> >> I'd be happy to point to a different explanatory definition. I'd also be >> happy to remove it again. >> >> > An SAA >> > should be appointed by the deliberative body itself, which is to say, >> the list >> > itself, by the list members. >> >> Maybe it should, but BCP45 didn't set it up this way and this draft is >> not intending to change that. >> >> > Furthermore, this draft is written by the current IETF Chair. So, this >> can >> > be seen as shoring up and reaffirming the Chair's power. >> >> If you compare this document to BCP45, you will find that it actually >> significantly reduces the power of the IETF Chair. First, BCP45 allows for >> the Chair to directly impose posting restrictions. This hasn't been the >> practice for quite a number of years, and this document hence removes that >> option, placing it entirely at the disposition of the SAAs. Second, it >> clarifies that the appeals process applies here, which BCP45 left somewhat >> unclear. >> >> > I strongly object to this. Documenting or redocumenting an existing >> process >> > doesn't make that process right, and this violates the basic concept of >> the >> > SAA as described. >> >> If you would like to propose changes to the BCP45 SAA process, please do >> so. Objecting to this document isn't going to result in such changes, >> because BCP45 would remain unchanged. >> >> Thanks, >> Lars >> >> >> > >> > Lloyd Wood >> > lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk >> > >> >> On 15 Sep 2021, at 18:48, Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton= >> 40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> I’ve not seen any further comments on this thread since Saturday. >> >> >> >> My interpretation is that Lars and Barry are supportive of this change. >> >> >> >> Brian, my interpretation is that Lar’s proposed text is acceptable to >> you. Please clarify if this is not the case. >> >> >> >> I would like to wait until Friday to see if there are any further >> comments on Lar’s proposed text. If there are no strong objections then on >> Friday I’ll ask Lars to post a -05 with the change and I’ll kick off IETF >> LC. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Rob >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Brian Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> >> >> Sent: 11 September 2021 08:38 >> >> To: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org> >> >> Cc: Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>; GENDISPATCH List < >> gendispatch@ietf.org>; draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org >> >> Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - >> draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt >> >> >> >> Hi Lars, >> >> Since 2026 doesn't mention conflict of interest, that's probably the >> procedure. Not entirely satisfactory, but we could live with it. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Brian Carpenter >> >> (via tiny screen & keyboard) >> >> >> >> On Sat, 11 Sep 2021, 17:37 Lars Eggert, <lars@eggert.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Brian, >> >> >> >> Is that an option in your reading of 2026? They way I understand it is >> that if the AD is conflicted, the entire IESG is the next step? >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Lars >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Sent from a mobile device; please excuse typos. >> >> >> >> > On Sep 10, 2021, at 23:20, Brian E Carpenter < >> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > On 10-Sep-21 23:01, Barry Leiba wrote: >> >> >> That works for me, Lars, and thanks. >> >> >> >> >> >> I see Brian's point about Gen AD instead of IETF Chair, but I don't >> >> >> agree with it here, because the SAAs are explicitly appointed by the >> >> >> IETF Chair, not related to the Gen Area. >> >> > >> >> > You're correct. There's still the corner case where the IETF Chair is >> >> > conflicted - for example, if the message(s) objected to by the SAAs >> >> > made allegations about the IETF Chair themself. Probably another AD >> >> > should be the first recourse in that case. >> >> > >> >> > Brian >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> Barry >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 3:11 AM Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org> >> wrote: >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Hi, >> >> >>> >> >> >>> I have a proposed change to use the normal RFC2026 appeals process >> in https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/7/files. This is the >> current change: >> >> >>> >> >> >>> --- a/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md >> >> >>> +++ b/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md >> >> >>> @@ -192,8 +192,8 @@ manner. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - even >> if the IETF >> >> >>> Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA team - >> any SAA >> >> >>> -decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall then review >> the situation >> >> >>> -and attempt to resolve it in a manner of its own choosing. >> >> >>> +decision can be appealed to the IETF Chair, per {{!RFC2026}}. >> Decisions by the >> >> >>> +IETF Chair can be appealed to the IESG as whole, again per >> {{!RFC2026}}. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> # Security Considerations >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Please let me know if this expresses what is desired? >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Thanks, >> >> >>> Lars >> >> >>> >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > Gendispatch mailing list >> >> > Gendispatch@ietf.org >> >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Gendispatch mailing list >> >> Gendispatch@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >> > -- >> > Gendispatch mailing list >> > Gendispatch@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > >> >> -- >> Gendispatch mailing list >> Gendispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >> > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >
- [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eg… internet-drafts
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Barry Leiba
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Jay Daley
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Barry Leiba
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Barry Leiba
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Barry Leiba
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Brian Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Rob Wilton (rwilton)
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lloyd W
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lloyd W
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Martin Thomson
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lars Eggert