Re: [Geojson] vertical datum definition
"Hedley, Mark" <mark.hedley@metoffice.gov.uk> Tue, 18 October 2022 13:34 UTC
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From: "Hedley, Mark" <mark.hedley@metoffice.gov.uk>
To: Howard Butler <howard@hobu.co>
CC: "geojson@ietf.org" <geojson@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Geojson] vertical datum definition
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Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 13:34:42 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Geojson] vertical datum definition
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Hello Howard Many thanks for following up with me Regarding: > 1) if you encode heights, they should be height-above-elipsoid WGS84 > 2) if you don't, applications should interpret them as MSL > But *which* MSL? is the question you ask. The GeoJSON specification doesn't answer that. Purposefully. That is not the question I am trying to ask, please may I try to restate my question, in the hope of some further discussion. My restated question is: Given (1), that a data provider has encoded heights in the GeoJSON payload I am loading, how do I deal with the interpretation / assumption that the data provider has provided heights / altitudes with respect to local mean sea level, but the specification mandates that I interpret these with respect to the WGS84 vertical datum (with significant offset value implicastions in many cases)? Height / altitude with respect to the WGS84 datum is rarely used and often misunderstood, but is the only way to interpret GeoJSON payloads given the specification. Is this question more clear than my previous attempt? Thank you Mark ________________________________________ From: Howard Butler <howard@hobu.co> Sent: 16 October 2022 14:52 To: Hedley, Mark Cc: geojson@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Geojson] vertical datum definition This email was received from an external source. Always check sender details, links & attachments. > On Sep 21, 2022, at 10:15 AM, Hedley, Mark <mark.hedley=40metoffice.gov.uk@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > An OPTIONAL third-position element SHALL > be the height in meters above or below the WGS 84 reference > ellipsoid. In the absence of elevation values, applications > sensitive to height or depth SHOULD interpret positions as being at > local ground or sea level. I read this to mean (and am pretty sure we meant): 1) if you encode heights, they should be height-above-elipsoid WGS84 2) if you don't, applications should interpret them as MSL But *which* MSL? is the question you ask. The GeoJSON specification doesn't answer that. Purposefully. As you've explained this is not satisfactory, especially for an organization that cares about the 3rd dimension and wishes to use GeoJSON as a long-term storage format. My retort is the specification authors did not want to impose geodetic description consumption and interpretation on GeoJSON users and this ambiguity is a consequence. GeoJSON is not a storage format for precisely described 3D geographic data. EGM2008 didn't exist when the specification was first written. WGS84 is a patchwork datum ensemble rather than a single unified datum. The geodetic world is moving to describing velocity models, and these challenges are not getting simpler to encode in data formats. All of these issues were why OGC is making OGC Feature Geometry https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ogc.org%2Fprojects%2Fgroups%2Ffeatgeojsonswg&data=05%7C01%7Cmark.hedley%40metoffice.gov.uk%7Cf952ae40e51f4c80f4bd08daaf86156b%7C17f1816120d7474687fd50fe3e3b6619%7C0%7C0%7C638015287671530564%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=oTLRVb%2F1hTK8zgAV6NTBLjbem7f9lkiIresdKZrkee8%3D&reserved=0 > So, as a data consumer, do i code to the spec? do i second guess based on assumptions of common usage? GeoJSON is more than 15 years old. That's like 75 in internet technology dog years. It's a surviver because it made simple choices, the specification examples are easy for a developer to follow, and it doesn't impose knowing finger-waving geodesy and computational geometry complexity on users who don't need to care about it. The latter is indeed sometimes a hindrance. GeoJSON was designed to interchange OGC simple features data inside of JSON between web applications. It was not designed to be an archival data format, a high performance network interchange, or an internally organized data structure that supported spatial selectivity. The pre-IETF version of GeoJSON "supported" alternative coordinate references by attempting to defer them to the consumer. This hurt interoperability on the fringes in exchange for very little value because most were using WGS84 and there was no JSON-based coordinate system description specification. We have PROJJSON now, but that isn't recognized as a standard, and we're 15+ years past the creation of GeoJSON. I don't have a satisfactory answer for you, but I will say our instinct to prevent coordinate system complexity from being an implementor and data consumer's responsibility was validated by its widespread adoption. GeoJSON's feature matrix is not right for everyone and every application, however. Howard
- [Geojson] vertical datum definition Hedley, Mark
- Re: [Geojson] vertical datum definition Howard Butler
- Re: [Geojson] vertical datum definition Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [Geojson] vertical datum definition Hedley, Mark
- Re: [Geojson] vertical datum definition Martin Daly
- Re: [Geojson] vertical datum definition Sean Gillies
- Re: [Geojson] vertical datum definition Martin Thomson
- Re: [Geojson] vertical datum definition Hedley, Mark
- Re: [Geojson] vertical datum definition Sean Gillies