Re: [GGIE] [Mops] [E] Updated proposed charter for a MOPS WG
"Holland, Jake" <jholland@akamai.com> Thu, 05 September 2019 16:33 UTC
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From: "Holland, Jake" <jholland@akamai.com>
To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>, "sanjay.mishra=40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org" <sanjay.mishra=40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Leslie Daigle <ldaigle@thinkingcat.com>, "mops@ietf.org" <mops@ietf.org>
CC: "ggie@ietf.org" <ggie@ietf.org>, Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
Thread-Topic: [Mops] [E] Updated proposed charter for a MOPS WG
Thread-Index: AQHVXzypAyofUn4bB0qLvd8aLaJzjqcdcp0A//+8iIA=
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 16:32:58 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ggie/lAFow252YWWCmmzaf-WXbK37tm0>
Subject: Re: [GGIE] [Mops] [E] Updated proposed charter for a MOPS WG
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Hi, Sorry for the slow response, I've got several things going on, and my response is complicated. But I do still care, and I do still support normalizing this group. (Also: sorry for not figuring this all out and making the case better back in February, but my current position was influenced by new information from feedback during 105.) TL/DR: I think we should revisit the idea of making mops a research group instead of a working group. Reasoning: Some of the feedback I got for draft-jholland-mops-taxonomy seemed to indicate some consensus that it's not worth forming a working group to produce documents like that one. And they might be right. I think there's a serious value in these meetings, but I'm not sure the main value is from producing the currently proposed work item, or other things like it. Rather, it's about getting focus on media delivery from a wide range of internet experts, from all the performance- and scale-relevant angles (even where we don't know what they are yet). If we think of the case study of "how would GGIE have played out in a world where mops had already existed", I think documenting and it as an experimental protocol along with performance measurements would be in-scope for a RG about media delivery, but probably not for an ops WG as proposed here. To me, that seems like an indication that the WG approach is a mistake. Crazy stuff like GGIE--which might work but it's weird, and people need a venue to argue over the details and make a cogent case for why IPv6 is/isn't an appropriate mapping substrate and suggest what would work better--is exactly the kind of thing that mops should be enabling, IMO. And the goal for a proposal like GGIE should be about turning it into a protocol with enough people convinced it's a good idea to spin it off into a WG to focus on that specifically, or to kill it if its core value rests on a fundamentally bad idea (which I don't think was true for ggie and I'm sad to see it apparently dead, though I do think it had some nasty issues--but the point is those issues might be fixable if there had been a good venue to refine it). Allowing for that kind of flexibility in the charter is a feature, not a bug. But it's a point against chartering as a WG as opposed to an RG. What I really want is: - to keep meeting, but with more people and to be on the IETF agenda - for the meetings to be recorded - any time someone has a new network-related scheme that's supposed to help media delivery, they're presenting at this meeting. - any time someone has a new kind of problem with media delivery, they're presenting at this meeting. - there's a reasonable effort to avoid conflicts on wherever else they're presenting, if anywhere. (+ nice-to-have: the note-well, for better clarity about IPR) I think WG vs. RG is irrelevant to that wish list. AFAICT, WG is only necessary if we have BCPs or standard to propose that need interop, right? Are there any such? (Would GGIE have necessarily died if it went through a phase as Experimental through the IRTF first?) Also: an RG could equally well publish the taxonomy document, as they can make Informational and Experimental RFCs. So as a "strategic direction"-level comment on the charter text, maybe a better model to copy the charter from is iccrg, which has a similarly loose and wide-ranging but important mission that likewise can't be easily untangled from lots of other topics. So they just state that and run with it: https://datatracker.ietf.org/rg/iccrg/about/ Minor comments (on the current charter text): - I'm not clear what "technologies of control protocols" means in the 2nd paragraph. When I try to guess what it might mean, I'm not sure they should be excluded from the scope, where they have a bearing on the performance dynamics for media delivery. - I'm not clear what "media acquisition" is in items 3 and 4 - I like points #1 and 2, and think they should appear in the charter even if we go the RG direction. But I think point #2 should probably be split into 2 points (one for identify operational issues, and another for solutions), and should use "propose" instead of "determine" for the solutions. Thanks for all your work on this Leslie, and I hope this group can find a regular home at IETF meetings, because I think it's extremely valuable to be meeting there. Best regards, Jake
- Re: [GGIE] [Mops] [E] Updated proposed charter fo… Eric Vyncke (evyncke)
- Re: [GGIE] [Mops] [E] Updated proposed charter fo… Ali C. Begen
- Re: [GGIE] [Mops] [E] Updated proposed charter fo… Holland, Jake
- Re: [GGIE] [Mops] [E] Updated proposed charter fo… Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)
- Re: [GGIE] [Mops] [E] Updated proposed charter fo… Leslie Daigle
- Re: [GGIE] [Mops] [E] Updated proposed charter fo… Holland, Jake