[grobj] FW: [Fwd: Re: Problem statement] - 6th out of 7
Sheng Jiang <shengjiang@huawei.com> Thu, 28 January 2010 09:33 UTC
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Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 17:32:55 +0800
From: Sheng Jiang <shengjiang@huawei.com>
To: grobj@ietf.org
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Subject: [grobj] FW: [Fwd: Re: Problem statement] - 6th out of 7
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FYI, there were some private discussion regarding to the new GROBJ problem statement draft. Resend it to the grobj maillist with permission. Wish to light wider discussion. There are 7 emails in this thread. This is 6th out of 7. Regards, Sheng > -----Original Message----- > From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:shengjiang@huawei.com] > Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 6:53 AM > To: Dan Wing > Cc: 'Simon Perreault'; 'Brian E Carpenter' > Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [grobj] Problem statement] > > At the end of this email. > > Sheng > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Simon Perreault [mailto:simon.perreault@viagenie.ca] > >> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 4:22 PM > >> To: Sheng Jiang > >> Cc: Brian E Carpenter; Dan Wing > >> Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [grobj] Problem statement] > >> > >> Sheng, > >> > >> Thanks for your comments. I reply inline below. > >> > >> > >> Brian, > >> > >> I just noticed that there is new text in the introduction > mentioning > >> ICE and "SuperICE". Thank you for that. I think it is needed to > >> understand GROBJ's role. > >> > >> > >> On 01/20/2010 05:08 PM, Sheng Jiang wrote: > >>> Can we forget about ALL at the beginning stage? We should > focus on > >>> necessary information for most cases we count so far and > >> then make the > >>> GROBJ extensiable for further use. If we can agree on this, > >> we can sit > >>> down discussion what the nessary information is and in > which cases. > >> > >> Yes. I don't think this change would affect the protocol > at all. It's > >> just a mindset change about how to use GROBJ, not what a GROBJ is. > >> > >>>> I don't understand R3. How can we be sure that such a > >> Reference item > >>>> "can be > >>>> used to find a path to the referred entry"? In my > >> understanding, an IP > >>>> address > >>>> doesn't fit this requirement because we often cannot find > >> a path (or > >>>> we find the > >>>> wrong path) for e.g. RFC1918 addresses. > >>> > >>> Again, we cannot sure at all. From the view of the > constructor of a > >>> GROBJ, it just selects the most useful item from its > pwespective. We > >>> make the best efforts, it may not work out at the end. > >> > >> That's also my understanding. That's why I don't understand R3. ;) > >> > >>>> I don't understand why R4 is needed, and I cannot imagine > >> a protocol > >>>> that would > >>>> pass this test. > >>> > >>> My understanding for this R4 is that we are going to > define a single > >>> universal format. And the discription of its options is > >> independent from > >>> network situations. > >> > >> I agree with the "universal format" idea, although I would > prefer to > >> say that a GROBJ is a "generic" format. The > "generalization" of ICE > >> is what interests me. > >> > >> What puzzles me is why you would want to forward this at all. Sure > >> the forwardee will be able to interpret the content, since it's a > >> generic format, but will he be able to use it as the > forwarder could? > >> The reachability of the reference items contained in it > will probably > >> be different when going from the forwarder to the forwardee. > >> > >> Anyway, I think the idea of R4 would be better captured if > it simply > >> said that a GROBJ is a free-standing protocol, embeddable, but not > >> necessarily embedded, into another. > >> > >> Side question: will it have a MIME type? > > > > I am one of the dis-believers in the "unified GROBJ > format", because > > someone coding in XML will naturally prefer XML; coding in > ASN.1 will > > prefer ASN.1, coding in A/V pairs will prefer A/V pairs (which is > > essentially what SDP, and thus ICE, are using for their > encoding), and > > so on. > > > > Sure, a MIME type could be defined. I wonder if it would > contain A/V > > pairs, though, as application/sdp does, or if it would > contain XML. > > Or something else, like a base64 version of some binary protocol. > > > > I differ from both Brian and Sheng on this point, but I > don't see much > > value in having One Unified Format for GROBJ; rather, an extensible > > XML format (for XML protocols) can be a template used for other > > protocols (one might imagine a gaming application or > something wanting > > to use GROBJ, and wanting a really tight binary encoding. > Maybe even > > with some compression using Huffman-like encoding of common GROBJ > > stuff, or zip, or what-have-you to send the fewest bits over the > > wire). > > When I said "One Unified Format", I did not mean a single > format. What I mean is a Unified framework, which any > applications can look at it and at least understand this is > useful for it or not. > > It just likes that we draft a table. We define: first column > is name, second is age, third is professional, blabla. That > is a unified table. > You fill it in different language, English, France, > Chinese... oh, I guess, we need to add a zero column before > name - language (maybe expressed in number). > > Then, the table is unified and reusable. It gets meanings > among different languages. The table can work when people > speack different languages. No need to redesign another or > multiple tables for the similar purpose. Otherwise, A, we may > get multiple tables to make it different to understand each > other, B, the experience cannot be passed among different > languages, a new language or org may starts from zero and > consider every detail by itself. > > > We don't have many application "A" (e.g., XMPP) talking to > application > > "B" (e.g., SIP) today. There's lots of reasons for that. > > Incompatible referrals is only one reason -- and a small reason, > > really; referrals, to date, have been simple. Yet, there > still is not > > a lot of application-A talking to application-B using referrals. > > So having a unique format, which is a natural for each > application, is > > not harmful. > > I agree what you said: applicants rarely talk to each other now. > However, this is not about APP-A talk to APP-B using GROBJ. > It is when APP-B designs its traversal/referral > function/protocol, it reuses APP-A's traversal/referral > experience. That's the whole motivation of GROBJ here: to > avaid APP-B to start its own ICE design from zero. With > GROBJ, APP-B designers just fill a framework with their > favorite language and follow a set of rules, then things can > work out for them. > They don't need to read and fully understand hundred pages of > ICE document. They can easily make their applications, client > a of APP-B and client b of APP-B, connect to each other directly. > > Cheers, > > Sheng >