[grobj] FW: [Fwd: Re: Problem statement] - 4th out of 7
Sheng Jiang <shengjiang@huawei.com> Thu, 28 January 2010 09:33 UTC
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Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 17:31:29 +0800
From: Sheng Jiang <shengjiang@huawei.com>
To: grobj@ietf.org
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Subject: [grobj] FW: [Fwd: Re: Problem statement] - 4th out of 7
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FYI, there were some private discussion regarding to the new GROBJ problem statement draft. Resend it to the grobj maillist with permission. Wish to light wider discussion. There are 7 emails in this thread. This is 4th out of 7. Regards, Sheng > -----Original Message----- > From: Dan Wing [mailto:dwing@cisco.com] > Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 9:54 AM > To: 'Simon Perreault'; 'Sheng Jiang' > Cc: 'Brian E Carpenter' > Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: [grobj] Problem statement] > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Simon Perreault [mailto:simon.perreault@viagenie.ca] > > Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 4:22 PM > > To: Sheng Jiang > > Cc: Brian E Carpenter; Dan Wing > > Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [grobj] Problem statement] > > > > Sheng, > > > > Thanks for your comments. I reply inline below. > > > > > > Brian, > > > > I just noticed that there is new text in the introduction > mentioning > > ICE and "SuperICE". Thank you for that. I think it is needed to > > understand GROBJ's role. > > > > > > On 01/20/2010 05:08 PM, Sheng Jiang wrote: > > > Can we forget about ALL at the beginning stage? We should > focus on > > > necessary information for most cases we count so far and > > then make the > > > GROBJ extensiable for further use. If we can agree on this, > > we can sit > > > down discussion what the nessary information is and in > which cases. > > > > Yes. I don't think this change would affect the protocol at > all. It's > > just a mindset change about how to use GROBJ, not what a GROBJ is. > > > > >> I don't understand R3. How can we be sure that such a > > Reference item > > >> "can be > > >> used to find a path to the referred entry"? In my > > understanding, an IP > > >> address > > >> doesn't fit this requirement because we often cannot find > > a path (or > > >> we find the > > >> wrong path) for e.g. RFC1918 addresses. > > > > > > Again, we cannot sure at all. From the view of the > constructor of a > > > GROBJ, it just selects the most useful item from its > pwespective. We > > > make the best efforts, it may not work out at the end. > > > > That's also my understanding. That's why I don't understand R3. ;) > > > > >> I don't understand why R4 is needed, and I cannot imagine > > a protocol > > >> that would > > >> pass this test. > > > > > > My understanding for this R4 is that we are going to > define a single > > > universal format. And the discription of its options is > > independent from > > > network situations. > > > > I agree with the "universal format" idea, although I would > prefer to > > say that a GROBJ is a "generic" format. The > "generalization" of ICE is > > what interests me. > > > > What puzzles me is why you would want to forward this at > all. Sure the > > forwardee will be able to interpret the content, since it's > a generic > > format, but will he be able to use it as the forwarder could? The > > reachability of the reference items contained in it will > probably be > > different when going from the forwarder to the forwardee. > > > > Anyway, I think the idea of R4 would be better captured if > it simply > > said that a GROBJ is a free-standing protocol, embeddable, but not > > necessarily embedded, into another. > > > > Side question: will it have a MIME type? > > I am one of the dis-believers in the "unified GROBJ format", > because someone coding in XML will naturally prefer XML; > coding in ASN.1 will prefer ASN.1, coding in A/V pairs will > prefer A/V pairs (which is essentially what SDP, and thus > ICE, are using for their encoding), and so on. > > Sure, a MIME type could be defined. I wonder if it would > contain A/V pairs, though, as application/sdp does, or if it > would contain XML. Or something else, like a base64 version > of some binary protocol. > > I differ from both Brian and Sheng on this point, but I don't > see much value in having One Unified Format for GROBJ; > rather, an extensible XML format (for XML protocols) can be a > template used for other protocols (one might imagine a gaming > application or something wanting to use GROBJ, and wanting a > really tight binary encoding. Maybe even with some > compression using Huffman-like encoding of common GROBJ > stuff, or zip, or what-have-you to send the fewest bits over > the wire). > > We don't have many application "A" (e.g., XMPP) talking to > application "B" (e.g., SIP) today. There's lots of reasons for that. > Incompatible referrals is only one reason -- and a small > reason, really; referrals, to date, have been simple. Yet, > there still is not a lot of application-A talking to > application-B using referrals. > So having a unique format, which is a natural for each > application, is not harmful. > > IMHO. > > -d >