From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
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To: Paolo Lucente <paolo@ntt.net>, Ketan Talaulikar <ketant.ietf@gmail.com>,
	The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [GROW] Re: Ketan Talaulikar's Discuss on
 draft-ietf-grow-bmp-bgp-rib-stats-16: (with DISCUSS)
Thread-Index: AQHcYVm319WNVsZAaEWsQqzz1jW6GLUQArtQ
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2025 14:44:50 +0000
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Hi all, =


Thank you all for the constructive discussion.

The authors will release SOON a new version that offloads these two types t=
o the marking TLV spec, better clarify the applicability of the other types=
, and some other minor edits.

The other points are beyond the scope of this spec. Specifically, no change=
s will be made in this draft to per AFI/SAFI and how we demux stats.

Cheers,
Med

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De=A0: Paolo Lucente <paolo@ntt.net>
> Envoy=E9=A0: samedi 29 novembre 2025 18:57
> =C0=A0: Ketan Talaulikar <ketant.ietf@gmail.com>; The IESG
> <iesg@ietf.org>
> Cc=A0: draft-ietf-grow-bmp-bgp-rib-stats@ietf.org; grow-
> chairs@ietf.org; grow@ietf.org; draft-ietf-grow-bmp-path-marking-
> tlv@ietf.org
> Objet=A0: [GROW] Re: Ketan Talaulikar's Discuss on draft-ietf-grow-
> bmp-bgp-rib-stats-16: (with DISCUSS)
> =

> =

> =

> Hi Ketan, Med, Authors,
> =

> Following up on the two open discussion points:
> =

> discuss 1) The only two defined stats that touch the concept of
> "primary" and "backup" are types 24 and 25; in draft-ietf-grow-
> bmp-path-marking-tlv path statuses are being defined -- and there
> is more to it than just primary and backup. Evolving from my
> previous email, i propose that these two stat types are removed
> from draft-ietf-grow-bmp-bgp-rib-stats mainly for consistency to
> draft-ietf-grow-bmp-path-marking-tlv and to avoid dependencies
> among the two documents; instead we can define stats for all
> defined path status in the path marking document; this, i guess,
> would also close this discussion point;
> =

> discuss 2) On the specific guidance point for future documents,
> please see
> https://fra01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2F
> mailarchive.ietf.org%2Farch%2Fmsg%2Fgrow%2F6pqYmYyy2V7eVuNHkERiLd5
> qnrM%2F&data=3D05%7C02%7Cmohamed.boucadair%40orange.com%7Cf83b5eb119
> cd4e3faf7208de2f70d6d5%7C90c7a20af34b40bfbc48b9253b6f5d20%7C0%7C0%
> 7C639000358873193586%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRyd
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> 3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=3D2Wcuk2TYx0ybNZLboIuVjHoMs7uLKyYkF%2Bp4Oa7
> 5BIM%3D&reserved=3D0
> . Away from the greasy technical details, in short, the BMPv4
> document would be a more suitable place than this document where
> to provide guidance and straighten a few aspects out.
> =

> Paolo
> =

> =

> On 25/11/25 21:52, Paolo Lucente wrote:
> >
> > Hi Ketan,
> >
> > On the two discussion points:
> >
> > discuss 1) Complementing answers from Jeff: while it's not the
> role of
> > this document or draft-ietf-grow-bmp-path-marking-tlv to make
> any
> > definition (ie. route vs path, primary vs backup etc.), we have
> two
> > documents that speak about things with a certain degree of
> affinity:
> > maybe we can avoid both to use similar terminology
> independently; we
> > could explain the terminology in one document
> > (draft-ietf-grow-bmp-path-marking-tlv would be the place to do
> that,
> > IMO) and place a reference in the other and let it re-use the
> terminology.
> >
> > The immediate con that comes to mind is that we introduce a
> dependency
> > among a document already in IESG court over one that has still a
> bit
> > of mileage to do in the WG (although i think we are almost done
> with it).
> >
> > A further idea could be to lock the two documents up by adding a
> "path
> > status" field in relevant stats types defined in
> > draft-ietf-grow-bmp-bgp-rib-stats referencing the path code
> points
> > defined in draft-ietf-grow-bmp-path-marking-tlv; the main con i
> see is
> > that - guess we would agree on a static format for stats (see
> next
> > point) - it would break auto-parsing of stats in a BMP
> collector.
> >
> > discuss 2) There is a couple of points to unpack:
> >
> > BMP messages include a per-peer header where there are peer
> flags.
> > Turning and twisting some of these, one can say whether content
> of the
> > BMP message belongs to Adj-Rib-In pre/post policy, Adj-Rib-Out
> > pre/post policy, Loc-Rib. Of course one can't mix-and-match
> stats for
> > different vantage points as part of the same Stats message; one
> Stats
> > message per covered vantage point is needed -- sub-optimal but
> this is
> > how BMP operates today and, especially for periodic messages,
> maybe good enough.
> >
> > On Global vs per-AFI/SAFI messages: where possible i like to
> favor a
> > static format, for example every message would be per-AFI/SAFI
> where
> > if AFI/SAFI are both set to zero it means it's Global. The pro
> is that
> > we would make stats auto-parseable by a collector; the con is
> that we
> > would potentially waste 3 bytes per stat TLV -- something we
> could
> > further sophisticate, saving auto-parsing, by introducing an
> innocent
> > bit saying whether AFI/SAFI will follow or not before the gauge
> /
> > value. This would avoid your duplication point, Ketan, and you
> are
> > right that currently there is no guidance in this sense -- hence
> myself throwing some ideas.
> >
> > Paolo
> >
> >
> > On 25/11/25 09:27, Ketan Talaulikar via Datatracker wrote:
> >> Ketan Talaulikar has entered the following ballot position for
> >> draft-ietf-grow-bmp-bgp-rib-stats-16: Discuss
> >>
> >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply
> to all
> >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to
> cut
> >> this introductory paragraph, however.)
> >>
> >>
> >> Please refer to
> >>
> https://fra01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2F
> www
> >> .ietf.org%2Fabout%2Fgroups%2Fiesg%2Fstatements%2Fhandling-
> ballot-posi
> >>
> tions%2F&data=3D05%7C02%7Cmohamed.boucadair%40orange.com%7Cf83b5eb11
> 9cd
> >>
> 4e3faf7208de2f70d6d5%7C90c7a20af34b40bfbc48b9253b6f5d20%7C0%7C0%7C
> 639
> >>
> 000358873221044%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIl
> YiO
> >>
> iIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C
> 0%7
> >>
> C%7C%7C&sdata=3D%2FvsOouJwIl8lBLY1cbMsb%2F%2FwBSzDuG4PUjFPg%2FdnbxM%
> 3D&
> >> reserved=3D0 for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and
> >> COMMENT positions.
> >>
> >>
> >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found
> here:
> >>
> https://fra01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2F
> dat
> >> atracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-ietf-grow-bmp-bgp-rib-
> stats%2F&data=3D0
> >>
> 5%7C02%7Cmohamed.boucadair%40orange.com%7Cf83b5eb119cd4e3faf7208de
> 2f7
> >>
> 0d6d5%7C90c7a20af34b40bfbc48b9253b6f5d20%7C0%7C0%7C639000358873237
> 184
> >>
> %7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwM
> CIs
> >>
> IlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdat
> a=3DF
> >> VkXH0mnULoMHa2xlZeM0dbVvTg%2Fqid%2BQUK5SI5XQIo%3D&reserved=3D0
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> ------
> >> -
> >> DISCUSS:
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> ------
> >> -
> >>
> >> Thanks to the authors and the WG for this document.
> >>
> >> Note: this ballot has been updated for v16 of the document. The
> >> previous number of points is retained. Points that have been
> >> addressed are deleted.
> >>
> >> Please find below certain points that I would like to discuss.
> >>
> >> <discuss-1> Semantics of routes, paths, primary, and backup.
> >>
> >> Section 2 of this document says:
> >> Primary route: A route to a prefix that is considered the best
> route
> >> by the BGP decision process [RFC4271] and actively used for
> >> forwarding traffic to that prefix. Backup route: A backup route
> is
> >> eligible for route selection, but it is not selected as the
> primary
> >> route and is also installed in the Loc-RIB. It is not used
> until all
> >> primary routes become unreachable. Backup routes are used for
> fast
> >> convergence in the event of failures.
> >>
> >> Consider an BGP route for destination prefix x/y is a
> multipath:
> >> x/y via BGP NH1 (path1) (best)
> >> =A0=A0=A0=A0 via BGP NH2 (path2) (multipath - say ECMP)
> >> =A0=A0=A0=A0 via BGP NH3 (path3) (backup)
> >> =A0=A0=A0=A0 via BGP NH4 (path4) (valid but not best/multipath/backup)
> >> =A0=A0=A0=A0 via BGP NH5 (path5) (invalid - for whatsover reason)
> >>
> >> This is a single route. The
> best/multipath/backup/valid/invalid/etc
> >> are qualifiers of its paths. Except for two stats that refer to
> paths
> >> (stale and suppressed), everything is referring to routes. I
> would
> >> like to discuss the semantics of route vs path. It seems to me
> like
> >> some of the stats are for paths and not routes.
> >>
> >> In general, I think the use of the terms primary/backup which
> are
> >> related to forwarding plane aspects can be confusing. Instead,
> >> perhaps using terms that are more suitable for BGP Loc-RIB
> would be
> >> better? I've suggested some of them above for consideration.
> Also
> >> refer to draft-ietf-grow-bmp-path-marking-tlv - the terms of
> stats
> >> should be aligned across the BMP documents?
> >>
> >> Furthermore, there is a wrong assumption that backup paths are
> only
> >> activated when all primary paths are down. This is very much
> >> implementation dependent.
> >> Some implementations have a 1:1 provisioning of primary/backup
> -
> >> where the backup would get used when its specific primary goes
> down -
> >> this draws on the FRR notion in the forwarding planes. Refer to
> the
> >> definition in draft-ietf-grow-bmp-path-marking-tlv
> >>
> >> These clarifications have implications on several of the stats
> as
> >> they are defined currently.
> >>
> >> <discuss-2> Section 3 has the following text and Section 4
> introduces
> >> a table that brings up an interesting aspect.
> >>
> >> "This section defines different statistics type for Adj-RIB-In
> and
> >> Adj-RIB-Out monitoring type. Some of these statistics are also
> >> applicable to Loc-RIB; refer to Section 4 for more details."
> >>
> >> For types 24 through 28, they are applicable for both Adj-RIB-
> In and
> >> Loc-RIB.
> >> How does one know what is being reported? Can this be
> clarified?
> >> Seems like this is the first document introducing such
> overloaded
> >> types but I don't find the reason why this is being done. There
> is
> >> also a sort of duplication for same stat being both global as
> well as
> >> per afi/safi - is there any guidance on whether only one of
> them
> >> needs to be supported (this way avoiding the race conditions
> and
> >> discrepancies in their totaling)?
> >>
> >> It is important to clarify these aspects if this is going to
> set a
> >> precedent/guidance for other similar stats in BMP in future
> documents?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> GROW mailing list -- grow@ietf.org
> >> To unsubscribe send an email to grow-leave@ietf.org
> =

> _______________________________________________
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