Re: [Hipsec] WGLC: draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal
Miika Komu <miika.komu@ericsson.com> Wed, 29 June 2016 19:01 UTC
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From: Miika Komu <miika.komu@ericsson.com>
Organization: Ericsson AB
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Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2016 22:01:29 +0300
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Subject: Re: [Hipsec] WGLC: draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal
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Hi, On 02/23/2016 04:08 PM, Tom Henderson wrote: > > > On 02/16/2016 06:22 AM, Ari Keränen wrote: >> Thank you for the review Tom! Please see below. >> >>> On 12/02/2016 11:54 PM, Tom Henderson wrote: >>>> Gonzalo and all, >>>> >>>> My understanding is that the WG reached consensus several years >>>> ago that the standards-track NAT traversal variant would be the >>>> native NAT traversal and not the RFC5770-based ICE/STUN/TURN >>>> version. >>>> >>>> I reviewed the above draft and noticed that it still contains >>>> normative references to RFC5770 (pointers to material found >>>> only in RFC5770) throughout, and contains RFC5770 as a >>>> normative reference in Section 8.1. It seems to me that the WG >>>> ought to produce a specification that can stand alone from >>>> RFC5770, because as it stands now, it seems to me that someone >>>> implementing it would need to consult both drafts and may be >>>> uncertain about what is still applicable from RFC5770. For >>>> example, is the UDP-ENCAPSULATION mode still valid? >> >> Indeed this variant is the standards-track solution, but I think >> it makes sense to not obsolete the RFC5770. For example, in some >> scenario the STUN based solution could be better than native HIP >> based. And also the UDP-ENCAPSULATION mode should be still valid. >> >>>> ICE (RFC 5245) is also still listed as normative but it seems >>>> to me that it should also be informative in this draft. >> >> The details of e.g., how ICE checklists are used are defined in >> RFC5245 so I think it needs to be normative. >> >>>> I think it would be appropriate to just reference 5770 in the >>>> Introduction, stating that this specification replaces RFC >>>> 5770 with a different mechanism than ICE/STUN/TURN, and then >>>> try to avoid referencing 5770 from then on. >> >> Avoiding RFC 5770 altogether would require lots of editorial work >> with this draft for a questionable amount of benefit, so I think >> it's better if we simply have it as normative reference. The >> maturity level of 5770 (experimental) is an issue, but I think it >> is possible - and makes sense - to make an exception here. > > Ari, I have thought about this and it seems to me that there are two > issues to discuss. > > There is a technical issue to resolve, which is whether the WG wants > to keep RFC5770 solutions as non-obsolete, and how to express these > options to future implementers. I had thought that the WG position > was to drop support for STUN-based solutions, but you are suggesting > now to keep it active, perhaps as a MAY implement? It seems to me > that the basic UDP-ENCAPSULATION mode should still be kept mandatory > since it is the basis for the other approach and is useful by > itself. > > Then there is the editorial issue about how to meet IETF guidelines > on how things are cross-referenced and use of informative/normative > references, which seems to me risky at the moment (i.e., I am > anticipating a downstream reviewer expressing this same concern). > Plus there is the goal of making it clearer to implementers. trying to recap your complete opinion... do you think the UDP-ENCAPSULATION should be MUST and ICE-HIP-UDP SHOULD? And RFC5770 MAY? Or do you think the draft should just deprecate RFC5770? Btw, RFC5770 is still a normative reference because we are redundantly explaining some parts of the RFC in the draft.
- Re: [Hipsec] WGLC: draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-trav… Miika Komu
- Re: [Hipsec] WGLC: draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-trav… Tom Henderson
- Re: [Hipsec] WGLC: draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-trav… Miika Komu
- Re: [Hipsec] WGLC: draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-trav… Miika Komu
- Re: [Hipsec] WGLC: draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-trav… Miika Komu
- Re: [Hipsec] WGLC: draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-trav… Miika Komu
- [Hipsec] WGLC: draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-traversal Gonzalo Camarillo
- Re: [Hipsec] WGLC: draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-trav… Miika Komu
- Re: [Hipsec] WGLC: draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-trav… Gonzalo Camarillo
- Re: [Hipsec] WGLC: draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-trav… Ari Keränen
- Re: [Hipsec] WGLC: draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-trav… Ari Keränen
- Re: [Hipsec] WGLC: draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-trav… Miika Komu
- Re: [Hipsec] WGLC: draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-trav… Miika Komu
- Re: [Hipsec] WGLC: draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-trav… Tom Henderson
- Re: [Hipsec] WGLC: draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-trav… Tom Henderson
- Re: [Hipsec] WGLC: draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-trav… Gonzalo Camarillo
- Re: [Hipsec] WGLC: draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-trav… Jeff Ahrenholz
- Re: [Hipsec] WGLC: draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-trav… Gonzalo Camarillo
- Re: [Hipsec] WGLC: draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-trav… Miika Komu
- Re: [Hipsec] WGLC: draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-trav… Gonzalo Camarillo
- Re: [Hipsec] WGLC: draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-trav… Derek Fawcus
- Re: [Hipsec] WGLC: draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-trav… Gonzalo Camarillo
- Re: [Hipsec] WGLC: draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-trav… Ari Keränen
- Re: [Hipsec] WGLC: draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-trav… Miika Komu
- Re: [Hipsec] WGLC: draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-trav… Miika Komu
- Re: [Hipsec] WGLC: draft-ietf-hip-native-nat-trav… Gonzalo Camarillo