Re: [Hls-interest] Inclusive Language

[John Bartos <[e-mail]>]

Thanks everyone for the support so far. Regarding intention, I don't
believe that it matters at this moment. The fact that the terms *can* be
interpreted in that way is the issue, and it's clear that that
interpretation does happen. We don't get to determine how people interpret
it. Furthermore, people reading the spec don't have the context Bill
provided here which digs into its origin.

I don't want to get caught up on semantics, but I see it like this: the two
files are presented hierarchically and one is called "master". I don't
think it's a stretch if someone interprets the other as "slave".

To be clear I'm not blaming or attacking the authors. What I am saying is
that we can improve ourselves.

As for the terms, I like "playlist" over "rendition". So we have:

   - Main playlist
   - Variant playlist
   - Content playlist
   - Root playlist
   - Index playlist (I do agree with JL, and I think we can acknowledge the
   prevalence of "index.m3u8")

And for the segments:

   - Media playlist
   - Variant playlist (again, but in a different context. It is a variant
   instead of it contains variants, which is a bit confusing imo).


I have been using Main/Media at work for a while now and have not run into
any confusion yet. So I prefer those.

For next steps, I think we should narrow down the above and then I'll send
out a poll. Of course until Apple/Roger weighs in this is all voluntary and
up to each organization to implement. But as Bill said, consistency is good.

- John

On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 11:09 AM Gary Katsevman <[e-mail]>
wrote:

> Brightcove is also in support of the name change.
>
> We have a slight preference to main and media playlists.
>
> On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 7:03 AM Phil Cluff <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
>> +1 from the team here at Mux.
>>
>> Personally I'm a fan of "variant" and "media" because the name explains
>> what the playlist contains - a list of variants, and a list of media
>> segments, but I do appreciate that it would be a confusing change.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 9:51 PM Jason Forbes <[e-mail]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I’ve always referred to them as root and variant manifests. JLF
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Jason Forbes
>>>
>>> Technical Consultant
>>>
>>> m: [phone]
>>>
>>> <[e-mail]>
>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasonlforbes/>     <https://velocix.com/>
>>>      <https://twitter.com/velocix>
>>>
>>> <https://velocix.com/>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Hls-interest <[e-mail]> * On Behalf Of *John
>>> Luther
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 23, 2020 14:23
>>> *To:* Law, Will <wilaw=[e-mail]>
>>> *Cc:* Joey Parrish <[e-mail]>; John Bartos <
>>> [e-mail]>; [e-mail]
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Hls-interest] Inclusive Language
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *EXTERNAL: Do not click links or open attachments if you do not
>>> recognize the sender.*
>>>
>>> Index has some precedent as the "starting point" of a content
>>> tree (index.html, etc.), but I'd be fine with Content Playlist.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> JL
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 4:15 PM Law, Will <wilaw=
>>> [e-mail]> wrote:
>>>
>>> ‘index’ is an overloaded term and the current ‘master’ playlist doesn’t
>>> actually provide an index (i.e an ordinal entry) in to anything. It simply
>>> lists the media playlists that are available and in so doing describes the
>>> content of what is available. Given that “rendition” also has a creepy
>>> second (and common) meaning, I’d go with the terms “content playlist” and
>>> “media playlist”.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -Will
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *John Luther <jluther=[e-mail]>
>>> *Date: *Thursday, July 23, 2020 at 12:27 PM
>>> *To: *Joey Parrish <joeyparrish=[e-mail]>
>>> *Cc: *John Bartos <bartsjb=[e-mail]>, "
>>> [e-mail]" <[e-mail]>
>>> *Subject: *Re: [Hls-interest] Inclusive Language
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> JW Player supports the renaming, preferring Index and Media.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> JL
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 2:47 PM Joey Parrish <joeyparrish=
>>> [e-mail]> wrote:
>>>
>>> I would support this change in naming.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 11:41 AM John Bartos <bartsjb=
>>> [e-mail]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'd like to start a discussion about inclusive language in the HLS spec.
>>> At Twitch we are committed to using inclusive engineering terms. We believe
>>> that inclusive language creates an environment where everyone feels welcome
>>> and supported.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As we've spread this awareness across the tech we use, I've noticed that
>>> the HLS spec uses the word "master" in a way which implies master/slave. I
>>> see this as contrary to our goals of inclusivity. It seems that we have
>>> already acknowledged this by changing "slave" to "child", but that is only
>>> a half measure.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'd like to see us do better. I expressed the above to the #video-dev
>>> community where I received broad support and some new ideas. Among them are:
>>>
>>>    - Main
>>>    - Index
>>>
>>> And for child:
>>>
>>>    - Media
>>>    - Rendition
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Let me know what you all think. Thanks to everyone who has offered input
>>> and support so far. I'm looking forward to a productive discussion.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> - John
>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Phil Cluff | Streaming Architect | [phone] | [e-mail]
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>