Re: [hops] Proposed Charter for Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP) Research Group

Aaron Falk <aaron.falk@gmail.com> Fri, 27 November 2015 16:19 UTC

Return-Path: <aaron.falk@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 379611B35D7 for <hops@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 27 Nov 2015 08:19:54 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.999
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uDSrTp8CJvVy for <hops@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 27 Nov 2015 08:19:51 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-yk0-x230.google.com (mail-yk0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1173B1B35D4 for <hops@ietf.org>; Fri, 27 Nov 2015 08:19:50 -0800 (PST)
Received: by ykba77 with SMTP id a77so122274370ykb.2 for <hops@ietf.org>; Fri, 27 Nov 2015 08:19:50 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=Vqu90U2YLot8oVaCB4jhtRhm6HIhM08ckoMhL+jpFCU=; b=dVWIP/sUwy00VfPudUYCbAGgZ85J5QR1m8TWT5q0X0a9fBSNocXWp7lcvMH6np5rew Yw3d4EvLX2xRIB2kvDAVnVRjwqGNNXwJ05iXydwz1rKCM3HyOiGBaysHXacwb/C+Pp9V mHWLResnDwyQg+IjU5rHc34910Dkk+FIJ1SqRrQcCY1kgXOflWZHq1FoKXiwUrF5YT2z TM+HcId89lp10+nxHgviXcpXgYRSn6TcW0qdV/bUM+nKoYzJ9w0m5EGdA3P0yfxTpbmW yYQZ6HxP0o6jy6BhRcRwmVhUD06b30upWWLdglVYCoF0L1MoKHW1GlLY7B9ymcgV2i29 D4gw==
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Received: by 10.13.197.198 with SMTP id h189mr41119815ywd.254.1448641190115; Fri, 27 Nov 2015 08:19:50 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.37.111.6 with HTTP; Fri, 27 Nov 2015 08:19:50 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <56587B11.4050204@tuwien.ac.at>
References: <26DB4818-9DFA-4484-88B6-A48C24EF3CC0@trammell.ch> <56587B11.4050204@tuwien.ac.at>
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 11:19:50 -0500
Message-ID: <CAD62q9Wp93kY9TinZPUNQLzt+3qBzxby=Q3m2qcOgk2jpOsSDA@mail.gmail.com>
From: Aaron Falk <aaron.falk@gmail.com>
To: Joachim Fabini <Joachim.Fabini@tuwien.ac.at>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114e48828b3fda0525880f41
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/hops/aURYaUFhMAuPN18AsD7L8jMXX6M>
Cc: Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>, hops@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [hops] Proposed Charter for Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP) Research Group
X-BeenThere: hops@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: Measuring deployability of new transport protocols <hops.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/hops>, <mailto:hops-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/hops/>
List-Post: <mailto:hops@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:hops-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hops>, <mailto:hops-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 16:19:54 -0000

Hi Joachim-

Good points but I would suggest the charter stay fairly vague on the
subjects other than allowing them to be in-scope for the RG, for exactly
the reason you suggest (it can be a distraction).  Perhaps just adding "and
best practices" to the end of the first bullet would open the door without
becoming an attractive nuisance. [*]

--aaron

* - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attractive_nuisance_doctrine

On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Joachim Fabini <
Joachim.Fabini@tuwien.ac.at>; wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hi Brian,
>
> I support the charter, thanks for revising it, and full consent to
> Ethan's statement: "landing pad" for the IMC community reads
> excellent, nice wording.
>
> One question (perhaps a minor rewording can help): is "collaborations
> to share data supporting these measurements" equivalent to "defining
> repositories and sharing meaningful methods, measurement results,
> measurement context and limitations of data sets" as discussed in
> Yokohama? It's not clear to me what "supporting these measurements"
> refers to exactly. It could mean "sharing of successful measurement
> methods and setups" rather than "sharing of measurement results".
>
> Second, is it needed|meaningful to explicitly mention legal aspects
> related to data sharing as within/outside of the MAP charter? Sharing
> data means dealing with country-specifics, licensing terms, privacy
> vs. usability, etc. As such, legal aspects are implicitly part of the
> charter. My feeling is that MAP should propose guidelines for sharing
> measurement data, and that such guidelines could be really helpful for
> the community. However, the discussion on the ietf94-attendees mailing
> list is a fair warning to be _very_ careful with discussions on any
> legal aspects (in particular privacy). There's a high risk to lose
> focus - perhaps we can delegate this subtask to the hrpc RG. ;)
>
> many thanks,
> Joachim
>
>
>
> On 26.11.2015 12:35, Brian Trammell wrote:
> > Greetings, all,
> >
> > Following discussions at the HOPS proposed RG meetings in Prague
> > and Yokohama, as well as at the RAIM workshop before Yokohama,
> > we've revised the charter to reflect what we think the community
> > wants out of such an RG. Note that given the slightly expanded
> > scope of this charter, though, we've decided to rename the proposed
> > RG to Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP).
> >
> >
> > Comments on the proposed charter below are welcome at
> > hops@ietf.org:
> >
> >
> > Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP) RG
> > ===============================================
> >
> > Our Internet has grown into something that differs from what was
> > envisioned. Its protocols sometimes operate in an environment other
> > than than that for which they were designed. For instance, some
> > network elements treat some protocols differently than others and
> > those protocols themselves are sometimes reused and abused in ways
> > initially unforseen. The Measurement and Analysis for Protocols
> > (MAP) Research Group (RG) explores such phenomena by measurement
> > with the aim to inform protocol engineering and practice.
> >
> > Many protocol engineering efforts in a standards development
> > context, as well as best practices for the operation of
> > IETF-defined protocols, can benefit from insight provided by
> > Internet measurements of various kinds. Likewise, Internet
> > measurement research efforts can stand to gain from contacts with
> > the IETF. The Measurement and Analysis for Protocol Engineering
> > (MAP) Research Group aims to provide a forum for interchange
> > between these two communities, supporting:
> >
> > - exchange of measurement-derived insight, - discussion of
> > techniques for measurement relevant for protocol engineering and
> > network operations, - collaborations to share data supporting these
> > measurements, and - a "landing pad" in general for the Internet
> > measurement community to introduce its efforts to the IETF
> >
> > Measurements of any layer of the Internet protocol stack or aspect
> > of Internet operations are in-scope for the RG, provided they are
> > relevant to protocol engineering work within the IETF, or the
> > operation of IETF protocols.
> >
> > Membership ----------
> >
> > Membership in the MAP RG is open to all interested parties.
> >
> > Meetings --------
> >
> > The MAP RG will meet one to three times per year, as deemed
> > necessary by the chairs and according to demand. At least one MAP
> > RG meeting will be co-located with an IETF meeting per year. Given
> > the MAP RG's charter to bridge the gap between Internet standards
> > and measurement communities, the MAP RG may also meet colocated
> > with relevant academic conferences or network operator forums, as
> > appopriate.
> >
> > Meetings are by default open with open attendance and published
> > proceedings, with remote participation and recording as provided by
> > the meeting venue, according to the IRTF's IPR policy. This is
> > always the case with at least one MAP RG meeting co-located with an
> > IETF meeting noted above. However, as deemed necessary, the chairs
> > may hold virtual or physical meetings with restricted attendance to
> > discuss observations which cannot be shared openly, provided that
> > some outcome of such a meeting may be openly shared with the
> > community.
> >
> > Chairs ------
> >
> > Mirja K├╝hlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>; Dave Plonka
> > <plonka@akamai.com>;
> >
> >
> > Many thanks,
> >
> > Brian
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________ hops mailing list
> > hops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hops
> >
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32)
>
> iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJWWHsRAAoJEKCP3BPvRqfSEN0IAL6c4Ze0q4HsDmONuh6WvbwF
> 4rLv1QEOgSGVCJzYGgfPSTdz5sgxjKWJ9X822CHe8PXDnjBlFvjJPg+da0IbyY9p
> SaDNZXY1YxUjt+YU+TwJctAZilMs8uWIOvv9Dq/WIfvXiBd1yWfB5PZ5HTYy+V/b
> 0Mup4gtmPcuR4cBgOKogRRz8iIMgxlOYFMfcrn18ZWy1HpOuIj9bHciA/T51QCGZ
> lOGCVsuzesg30qwEMpv0H5vusz9eaYZCw2h9B7k7hHkP3ahuNO5u+raNUVSE4NYN
> JFpHBngwPy7MiJdetYEba8p1o557hDgb+R5AtlnUwDxGMAuzbiPxkrmgTAi4/sc=
> =ZvWy
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> hops mailing list
> hops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hops
>