Re: [hops] Proposed Charter for Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP) Research Group

Dave Plonka <> Sat, 28 November 2015 18:01 UTC

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Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 13:01:50 -0500
From: Dave Plonka <>
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Cc: Brian Trammell <>, Dirk Kutscher <>
Subject: Re: [hops] Proposed Charter for Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP) Research Group
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Hi Dirk and others,

[Speaking only for myself below, but along the lines of why I am
 willing to co-chair the propsed RG.]

On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 06:29:49PM +0000, Dirk Kutscher wrote:
> Hi Brian and all,
> first off, I welcome everyone who wants to do work in the IRTF.
> With the very general scope as it is described now, I wonder a bit
> how this relates to the IRTF's objective of " creating focused,
> long-term Research Groups working on topics related to Internet
> protocols, applications, architecture and technology."

The broadening of the scope beyond HOPS was intentional.
I too am interested in focused work, and we intend to have individual
items be focused, but from a RG perspective, something broad enough
to accept yet-to-be proposed topics was desired; so that the RG
can span multiple efforts potentially without rechartering, i.e.,
administrative work.

> Measurements, in my view, are a tool for networking research and
> development, and in fact most of us are doing measurements in
> different forms for validating assumptions, assessing performance
> etc. Research groups such as ICCRG are often discussing measurement
> results.
> So in that sense, it's a meta topic that is daily business for IRTF
> RGs. I am fully aware of the fact that measurement methodology is
> itself a research topic, but it's not quite clear to me what we
> want to achieve.
> - are we trying to do/promote constructive work towards advancing
>   Internet measurement tools and infrastructure?

No, neither tools nor infrastructure (are inherently in scope),
but rather measurement techniques and discovery of how the Internet
exists and is "playing out" in ways that directly affect IETF goals
re: standards and BCP.

The charter as proposed specifically mentions towards advancing
(only) protocol design and operation.

> - are we planning to discuss middlebox issues?

Yes. We expect to transition this and continue this effort from the
non-RG-forming HOPS meetings, to the degree that there are people
to do the work.

In my mind, the effect iddlebox's have on protocol performance is
the "poster child" topic for our proposed MAP RG; if successful,
it will demonstrate how discovering substrate characteristics can
inform protocol development and operation/practice.

> - do we want offer discussion platform for general measurement topics?

No. There are other forums for that, e.g., the IPPM Working Group and
the Internet Measurement Conference.

Building measurement infrastructures, e.g., databases, is also
something we currently consider out of scope.

> I am bit skeptical with respect to creating an RG for general
> measurement discussions. There are existing conferences and workshops
> that are doing that already. Also, it's unclear how that would
> contribute to the IRTF objectives.

It might help if I offer some example topics (that Brian or I considered
as strawmen) that I find would be in scope:

- A survey of the IPv6 WWW, to inform practice with respect to privacy,
  e.g. service address assignment, virtual hosting, and SNI.
  Basically, "Are we building an IPv6 web that we want?"

- Large scale examination of IPv4 address utilization or "churn",
  and how it's changing in cooperation with IPv6.

- For operational purposes such as DoS mitigation, how should
  "IP reputation" likely need to change for IPv6.
  What needs to be measured (differently)?

These are use (semi-imaginary) examples, but I know of researchers
working on each of these that might benefit from bringing them to
an IRTF forum such as the proposed MAP RG.

> Please enlighten me. :-)

You be the judge. If you find that the charter doesn't jibe with
my comments above, please offer your suggested change(s).

Thanks Dirk!


> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: hops [] On Behalf Of Brian Trammell
> > Sent: Donnerstag, 26. November 2015 12:35
> > To:
> > Subject: [hops] Proposed Charter for Measurement and Analysis for Protocols
> > (MAP) Research Group
> > 
> > Greetings, all,
> > 
> > Following discussions at the HOPS proposed RG meetings in Prague and
> > Yokohama, as well as at the RAIM workshop before Yokohama, we've revised
> > the charter to reflect what we think the community wants out of such an RG.
> > Note that given the slightly expanded scope of this charter, though, we've
> > decided to rename the proposed RG to Measurement and Analysis for Protocols
> > (MAP).
> > 
> > 
> > Comments on the proposed charter below are welcome at
> > 
> > 
> > Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP) RG
> > ===============================================
> > 
> > Our Internet has grown into something that differs from what was envisioned.
> > Its protocols sometimes operate in an environment other than than that for
> > which they were designed. For instance, some network elements treat some
> > protocols differently than others and those protocols themselves are sometimes
> > reused and abused in ways initially unforseen. The Measurement and Analysis
> > for Protocols (MAP) Research Group (RG) explores such phenomena by
> > measurement with the aim to inform protocol engineering and practice.
> > 
> > Many protocol engineering efforts in a standards development context, as well
> > as best practices for the operation of IETF-defined protocols, can benefit from
> > insight provided by Internet measurements of various kinds. Likewise, Internet
> > measurement research efforts can stand to gain from contacts with the IETF.
> > The Measurement and Analysis for Protocol Engineering (MAP) Research Group
> > aims to provide a forum for interchange between these two communities,
> > supporting:
> > 
> > - exchange of measurement-derived insight,
> > - discussion of techniques for measurement relevant for protocol engineering
> >   and network operations,
> > - collaborations to share data supporting these measurements, and
> > - a "landing pad" in general for the Internet measurement community to
> >   introduce its efforts to the IETF
> > 
> > Measurements of any layer of the Internet protocol stack or aspect of Internet
> > operations are in-scope for the RG, provided they are relevant to protocol
> > engineering work within the IETF, or the operation of IETF protocols.
> > 
> > Membership
> > ----------
> > 
> > Membership in the MAP RG is open to all interested parties.
> > 
> > Meetings
> > --------
> > 
> > The MAP RG will meet one to three times per year, as deemed necessary by the
> > chairs and according to demand. At least one MAP RG meeting will be co-
> > located with an IETF meeting per year. Given the MAP RG's charter to bridge the
> > gap between Internet standards and measurement communities, the MAP RG
> > may also meet colocated with relevant academic conferences or network
> > operator forums, as appopriate.
> > 
> > Meetings are by default open with open attendance and published proceedings,
> > with remote participation and recording as provided by the meeting venue,
> > according to the IRTF's IPR policy. This is always the case with at least one MAP
> > RG meeting co-located with an IETF meeting noted above. However, as deemed
> > necessary, the chairs may hold virtual or physical meetings with restricted
> > attendance to discuss observations which cannot be shared openly, provided
> > that some outcome of such a meeting may be openly shared with the
> > community.
> > 
> > Chairs
> > ------
> > 
> > Mirja Kühlewind <> Dave Plonka
> > <>
> > 
> > 
> > Many thanks,
> > 
> > Brian
> _______________________________________________
> hops mailing list

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