Re: [hops] Proposed Charter for Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP) Research Group

Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch> Sun, 29 November 2015 13:53 UTC

Return-Path: <ietf@trammell.ch>
X-Original-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 682321A044E for <hops@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 29 Nov 2015 05:53:10 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.487
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.487 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id olms76co9c0T for <hops@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 29 Nov 2015 05:53:08 -0800 (PST)
Received: from trammell.ch (trammell.ch [5.148.172.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A573A1A03F9 for <hops@ietf.org>; Sun, 29 Nov 2015 05:53:07 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [IPv6:2001:67c:10ec:2a49:8000::b9] (unknown [IPv6:2001:67c:10ec:2a49:8000::b9]) by trammell.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 26CC31A03E5; Sun, 29 Nov 2015 14:53:05 +0100 (CET)
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\))
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B1F17C9F-1AF8-408D-B79C-8B7A03EA6C82"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512
X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 2.5.2
From: Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>
In-Reply-To: <20151128180150.GA1378@akamai.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2015 14:53:04 +0100
Message-Id: <1576235D-973D-48CE-85EB-94352BB321D3@trammell.ch>
References: <26DB4818-9DFA-4484-88B6-A48C24EF3CC0@trammell.ch> <82AB329A76E2484D934BBCA77E9F5249A67B47F5@PALLENE.office.hd> <20151128180150.GA1378@akamai.com>
To: Dirk Kutscher <Dirk.Kutscher@neclab.eu>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104)
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/hops/qVvDFwP3u36QFtT3Yxl2tDPa1c4>
Cc: Dave Plonka <plonka@akamai.com>, "hops@ietf.org" <hops@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [hops] Proposed Charter for Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP) Research Group
X-BeenThere: hops@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: Measuring deployability of new transport protocols <hops.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/hops>, <mailto:hops-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/hops/>
List-Post: <mailto:hops@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:hops-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hops>, <mailto:hops-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2015 13:53:10 -0000

hi Dirk,

I had an editor open to answer your question, but I'll throw my answer away and say "what Dave said".

One point of emphasis below, inline.

> On 28 Nov 2015, at 19:01, Dave Plonka <plonka@akamai.com>; wrote:

<snip>

>> I am bit skeptical with respect to creating an RG for general
>> measurement discussions. There are existing conferences and workshops
>> that are doing that already. Also, it's unclear how that would
>> contribute to the IRTF objectives.
> 
> It might help if I offer some example topics (that Brian or I considered
> as strawmen) that I find would be in scope:
> 
> - A survey of the IPv6 WWW, to inform practice with respect to privacy,
>  e.g. service address assignment, virtual hosting, and SNI.
>  Basically, "Are we building an IPv6 web that we want?"
> 
> - Large scale examination of IPv4 address utilization or "churn",
>  and how it's changing in cooperation with IPv6.
> 
> - For operational purposes such as DoS mitigation, how should
>  "IP reputation" likely need to change for IPv6.
>  What needs to be measured (differently)?
> 
> These are use (semi-imaginary) examples, but I know of researchers
> working on each of these that might benefit from bringing them to
> an IRTF forum such as the proposed MAP RG.

The common theme here is applicability to protocol engineering and operations -- the point of doing this within the IRTF is the relative closeness of the IRTF to the IETF community, especially compared to the academic network measurement community. We're not trying to replace academic venues; if anything, MAP would be more like RIPE MAT for the IETF community, which tries to get interesting work in measurement in front of people who might not otherwise hear about it, and feed comments on applicability and usefulness back into the measurement community.

Cheers,

Brian

>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: hops [mailto:hops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian Trammell
>>> Sent: Donnerstag, 26. November 2015 12:35
>>> To: hops@ietf.org
>>> Subject: [hops] Proposed Charter for Measurement and Analysis for Protocols
>>> (MAP) Research Group
>>> 
>>> Greetings, all,
>>> 
>>> Following discussions at the HOPS proposed RG meetings in Prague and
>>> Yokohama, as well as at the RAIM workshop before Yokohama, we've revised
>>> the charter to reflect what we think the community wants out of such an RG.
>>> Note that given the slightly expanded scope of this charter, though, we've
>>> decided to rename the proposed RG to Measurement and Analysis for Protocols
>>> (MAP).
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Comments on the proposed charter below are welcome at hops@ietf.org:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP) RG
>>> ===============================================
>>> 
>>> Our Internet has grown into something that differs from what was envisioned.
>>> Its protocols sometimes operate in an environment other than than that for
>>> which they were designed. For instance, some network elements treat some
>>> protocols differently than others and those protocols themselves are sometimes
>>> reused and abused in ways initially unforseen. The Measurement and Analysis
>>> for Protocols (MAP) Research Group (RG) explores such phenomena by
>>> measurement with the aim to inform protocol engineering and practice.
>>> 
>>> Many protocol engineering efforts in a standards development context, as well
>>> as best practices for the operation of IETF-defined protocols, can benefit from
>>> insight provided by Internet measurements of various kinds. Likewise, Internet
>>> measurement research efforts can stand to gain from contacts with the IETF.
>>> The Measurement and Analysis for Protocol Engineering (MAP) Research Group
>>> aims to provide a forum for interchange between these two communities,
>>> supporting:
>>> 
>>> - exchange of measurement-derived insight,
>>> - discussion of techniques for measurement relevant for protocol engineering
>>>  and network operations,
>>> - collaborations to share data supporting these measurements, and
>>> - a "landing pad" in general for the Internet measurement community to
>>>  introduce its efforts to the IETF
>>> 
>>> Measurements of any layer of the Internet protocol stack or aspect of Internet
>>> operations are in-scope for the RG, provided they are relevant to protocol
>>> engineering work within the IETF, or the operation of IETF protocols.
>>> 
>>> Membership
>>> ----------
>>> 
>>> Membership in the MAP RG is open to all interested parties.
>>> 
>>> Meetings
>>> --------
>>> 
>>> The MAP RG will meet one to three times per year, as deemed necessary by the
>>> chairs and according to demand. At least one MAP RG meeting will be co-
>>> located with an IETF meeting per year. Given the MAP RG's charter to bridge the
>>> gap between Internet standards and measurement communities, the MAP RG
>>> may also meet colocated with relevant academic conferences or network
>>> operator forums, as appopriate.
>>> 
>>> Meetings are by default open with open attendance and published proceedings,
>>> with remote participation and recording as provided by the meeting venue,
>>> according to the IRTF's IPR policy. This is always the case with at least one MAP
>>> RG meeting co-located with an IETF meeting noted above. However, as deemed
>>> necessary, the chairs may hold virtual or physical meetings with restricted
>>> attendance to discuss observations which cannot be shared openly, provided
>>> that some outcome of such a meeting may be openly shared with the
>>> community.
>>> 
>>> Chairs
>>> ------
>>> 
>>> Mirja K├╝hlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>; Dave Plonka
>>> <plonka@akamai.com>;
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Many thanks,
>>> 
>>> Brian
>> _______________________________________________
>> hops mailing list
>> hops@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hops
> 
> --
> plonka@akamai.com  http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~plonka/  Cambridge, MA
> 
> _______________________________________________
> hops mailing list
> hops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hops