Re: [HT-rt] [[e-mail]: Call for Comment: <draft-iab-marnew-report-01> (IAB Workshop on Managing Radio Networks in an Encrypted World (MaRNEW) Report)]

[Shivan <[e-mail]>]

We could use GitHub to format our *email* reply - doesn't need to be in the
draft format.

In the context of this draft, where our criticism could perhaps be valuable
is Section 7; I am inclined to agree with their principles, not so much
with their proposed solutions. Some suggestions put forth are vague and
handwavy, which makes it hard to comment on. I have some notes I'll type up
and comment on Amelia's PR.

On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 9:27 AM, Amelia Andersdotter <[e-mail]>
wrote:

> Hi Niels,
>
> Ok, so to clarify is the general points brought up in the text along
> what was expected? Some of the stuff could be footnoted. Putting it in
> e-mail format is smaller challenge.
>
> I thought github could be a collaborative way of ensuring many people
> could contribute to the text (such as Shivan).
>
> A very simple feedback would be to just include the list of HR concerns
> that /were/ included in the workshop, and which ones /weren't/.
>
> best regards,
>
> Amelia
>
> On 2018-04-11 11:07, Niels ten Oever wrote:
> > Hi Amelia,
> >
> > We don't need a specific format, we can simply send an email with the
> > review.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Niels
> >
> > On 04/09/2018 07:23 PM, Amelia Andersdotter wrote:
> >> How easiest to draft?
> >>
> >> i started something here:
> >> https://github.com/nllz/IRTF-HRPC/pull/221/files#diff-
> 989e50ba297c8bab8fe8fbd3759ac6d2
> >>
> >>
> >> there's some semantics in this (first), and then i started the
> >> evaluation by removing those considerations that i thought were either
> >> already addressed, or that would best be addressed elsewhere.
> >>
> >> i find it ironic that the telcos don't want to share their APIs /with
> >> their own customers and users(!)/ out of competition concerns. normally,
> >> i'm the customer of by telco, i don't compete with it.
> >>
> >> but a big problem in the mobile markets could then be that vertically
> >> integrated operators can be both mobile OS or mobile app providers /and/
> >> Mobile Network Operators at the same time. Oh, if only the telcos had
> >> lobbied for a competetitve market regulation(!) how many of their
> >> current predicaments (and also end-user human rights concerns) could be
> >> solved. but ok.
> >>
> >> /end whiny transmission
> >>
> >> amelia
> >>
> >>
> >> On 2018-04-09 13:42, Niels ten Oever wrote:
> >>> Hi Amelia,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 04/08/2018 10:19 PM, Amelia Andersdotter wrote:
> >>>> I guess the task is to apply the Human Rights Guidelines from RFC
> 8280?
> >>>>
> >>> Rather the guidelines doc:
> >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-00
> >>>
> >>> And feedback any potentially useful changes.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> It's a workshop. As I read the draft report GSMA is defending their
> >>>> regulatory and commercial interests, and IETF is saying "well, make it
> >>>> work while stuff is encrypted".
> >>>>
> >>>> So do we mean to criticize GSMA's self-perceived political/commercial
> >>>> interests from a HR perspective?
> >>>>
> >>> We seek to understand the potential impact for the ability of end-users
> >>> to excercise their human rights, a consequence for that could be to
> >>> criticize the proposed architectural reordering.
> >>>
> >>>> ====
> >>>>
> >>>> The workshop appears not to have touch on the upcoming ePrivacy
> >>>> regulation in the EU at all, in spite of it having a fairly big impact
> >>>> on many GSMA members. In particular, GSMA has been lobbying /against/
> >>>> the ePrivacy regulation, in spite of the IETF helpfully solving many
> of
> >>>> their regulatory challenges under the law.
> >>> Interesting - this could fall under the privacy part.
> >>>
> >>>> Telcos are in the place where they want to sell amounts of data. HTTPS
> >>>> increases the amount of data, making telco consumer potentially
> >>> decreases, right?
> >>>
> >>>> unhappier. Encryption can also slow stuff down, and while some vendors
> >>>> say that that's an issue of the past, it's possible that it isn't in
> for
> >>>> instance the developing world. Probably Facebook Free Basic
> connections
> >>>> have data on this.
> >>>>
> >>>> In some countries, notably the UK, telcos may be under obligation to
> >>>> generally filter connections (ensure they're porn-free). I find that
> >>>> policy disagreeable, but nevertheless it's there. For telcos it's a
> >>>> challenge.
> >>>>
> >>> This has an impact on FoE. I don't think we need to have an opinion on
> >>> everything from the get-go, but rather show the (potential)
> implications.
> >>>
> >>>> In Sweden, before the EU open internet regulation entered into effect,
> >>>> several telcos were investigated for traffic prioritisation (which was
> >>>> suspected to run contrary to ePrivacy directive obligations not to
> >>>> monitor traffic). Ironically, the EU open internet law kind of
> permitted
> >>>> commercially motivated traffic discrimination so those inquiries have
> >>>> since been cancelled. The new ANACOM case in Portugal may change this
> >>>> interpretation of what the open internet regulation says, but I don't
> >>>> perceive Portugal to be heading in that direction.
> >>>>
> >>> Cheers,
> >>>
> >>> Niels
> >>>
> >>>> best regards,
> >>>>
> >>>> Amelia
> >>>>
> >>>> On 2018-04-08 12:30, Niels ten Oever wrote:
> >>>>> Amelia know more about radio networks than I do methinks, but happy
> to
> >>>>> do so if Amelia is not available.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Niels
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sent from Blue <http://www.bluemail.me/r?b=12687>
> >>>>> On Apr 7, 2018, at 22:43, Shivan <[e-mail]
> >>>>> <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>     I could take a look, if someone could work with me.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>     On Sat, Apr 7, 2018, 11:36 AM Stephane Bortzmeyer
> >>>>>     <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>         Obvious HR consequences. Any volunteer?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>         ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >>>>>         From: IAB Executive Administrative Manager <[e-mail]
> >>>>>         <mailto:[e-mail]>>
> >>>>>         To: IETF Announcement List <[e-mail]
> >>>>>         <mailto:[e-mail]>>
> >>>>>         Cc:
> >>>>>         Bcc:
> >>>>>         Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 15:08:39 -0700
> >>>>>         Subject: Call for Comment: <draft-iab-marnew-report-01> (IAB
> >>>>>         Workshop on Managing Radio Networks in an Encrypted World
> >>>>>         (MaRNEW) Report)
> >>>>>         This is an announcement of an IETF-wide Call for Comment on
> >>>>>         draft-iab-marnew-report-01.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>         The document is being considered for publication as an
> >>>>>         Informational RFC
> >>>>>         within the IAB stream, and is available for inspection at:
> >>>>>         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-marnew-report/
> >>>>>
> >>>>>         The Call for Comment will last until 2018-05-01. Please send
> >>>>>         comments to
> >>>>>         [e-mail]
> >>>>>         <mailto:[e-mail]> and [e-mail]
> >>>>>         <mailto:[e-mail]>.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>         Abstract
> >>>>>
> >>>>>            The MarNEW workshop aimed to discuss solutions for
> bandwidth
> >>>>>            optimisation on mobile networks for encrypted content, as
> >>>>>         current
> >>>>>            solutions rely on unencrypted content which is not
> >>>>>         indicative of the
> >>>>>            security needs of today's Internet users.  The workshop
> >>>>>         gathered IETF
> >>>>>            attendees, IAB members and various organisations involved
> >>>>>         in the
> >>>>>            telecommunications industry including original equipment
> >>>>>            manufacturers and mobile network operators.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>            The group discussed the current Internet encryption
> trends and
> >>>>>            deployment issues identified within the IETF, and the
> >>>>>         privacy needs
> >>>>>            of users which should be adhered.  Solutions designed
> >>>>>         around sharing
> >>>>>            data from the network to the endpoints and vice versa
> were then
> >>>>>            discussed as well as analysing whether the current issues
> >>>>>         experienced
> >>>>>            on the transport layer are also playing a role here.
> Content
> >>>>>            providers and CDNs gave an honest view of their
> experiences
> >>>>>         delivery
> >>>>>            content with mobile network operators.  Finally, technical
> >>>>>         responses
> >>>>>            to regulation was discussed to help the regulated
> >>>>>         industries relay
> >>>>>            the issues of impossible to implement or bad-for-privacy
> >>>>>         technologies
> >>>>>            back to regulators.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>            A group of suggested solutions were devised which will be
> >>>>>         discussed
> >>>>>            in various IETF groups moving forward.
> >>>>>         _______________________________________________
> >>>>>         HR-rt mailing list
> >>>>>         [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
> >>>>>         https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt
> >>>>>
> >>>>>     ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------
> >>>>>
> >>>>>     HR-rt mailing list
> >>>>>     [e-mail]
> >>>>>     https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt
> >>>>>
>
> --
> Amelia Andersdotter
> Technical Consultant, Digital Programme
>
> ARTICLE19
> www.article19.org
>
> PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55
>
>
>