Re: [hrpc] Moving forward on draft-irtf-political

Corinne Cath <corinnecath@gmail.com> Tue, 24 September 2019 11:14 UTC

Return-Path: <cattekwaad@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF02D120106 for <hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 24 Sep 2019 04:14:15 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.997
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kD7mSPzy_RjC for <hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 24 Sep 2019 04:14:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-qt1-x831.google.com (mail-qt1-x831.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::831]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8026120118 for <hrpc@irtf.org>; Tue, 24 Sep 2019 04:14:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-qt1-x831.google.com with SMTP id u40so1582054qth.11 for <hrpc@irtf.org>; Tue, 24 Sep 2019 04:14:12 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=2lt9Rr9t453GsbZTTtjQ7mD7HD/fs+jbGcadHl4OM38=; b=vD56zRlz++YV6CP1CQiFiFOT6qJf14ywKsCN6pRjAYQ/jF/pE+ys5QdX5GX4XNz5qs aW2ddhesi64TxJTGamVidLQ2CMKxCARfdSu6TRMETg1d4eQv31IFjD5Dt2digk7D9gDb +QO5EzMlBOxsWtP3PLahKGG5osnS4Fqd+AxOj4Ba5FVB0UEB9wndjRvW+99/3AR8avnq m4533O/nINigzI4oNwqIHie0qpQJIg58t2VtDKFhHf/rdKqfsKlijhghcznywiWU3hTW An0I8lGF2zBNmoZvnrjJitnoo6F8M/QZTipSDrwW7sjsktcDkd3TpCzWYhufzbOml/GQ 1ssw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=2lt9Rr9t453GsbZTTtjQ7mD7HD/fs+jbGcadHl4OM38=; b=KYkTSNZYBxWi/12syOp60rchdhzwrn/mspvbDr/gUKTyecsDViwx4g+bXarYCikOnc 5m6QEpn3Zu4BoZtoKPWcBcu2Tkqdagjm1oMS3LppUFNoUzOnlUfyZYaMMF6tWBe77Wne 2tBwG0DfU8dD+3rOo41VcO+KypWzWH72UeUaQo41ZniIgmGYDLUPbYjrbOZXZPIzuJdg l5e7n4Ykv7zzuSqD6tUAiP76Nnw0wUVlB9+Fo06q4dVbFNgB8KzFI4Yo9jOPidoun8LU oqaCx4jLrvSyEdrwBFmWaxgYOT2ID/f5W/+G51xoACR2n+fY/utb7sFCUEKBmDRB5INB O5kQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX1YViyNOGlVWFQ87B8uBnYR68xrTut09O3xRM33588Pgujhdr8 ZybA06jWhau19GLKW2UrY3Q4jk9FPTXSDBPy5Mg=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyy+s5/9+03B2Hogo/flNfcojlwcn651kRjeWjKb8QnrKRErDnEIieST9PZtE56UBCT1guEGuQuDwOiPf4hTJs=
X-Received: by 2002:a0c:abcd:: with SMTP id k13mr1924575qvb.69.1569323651667; Tue, 24 Sep 2019 04:14:11 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <156882005427.4606.6393818361687491816@ietfa.amsl.com> <a5361cda-994c-27ad-adf7-0aa06d61a8a2@nielstenoever.net> <20190920183918.d7mpxb4jyulfqqwj@anvilwalrusden.com> <CABcZeBPK8h8Bn-vhr6vq9_K9jUAE-ry5iZhLLiwjd15gpEuwHQ@mail.gmail.com> <28d4faab-cb89-34bd-d8bc-525aab96ab66@nielstenoever.net> <CABcZeBPCEiAxksRz6HnErN=eJDho+WYGg28No1YzOZEL1GjYMA@mail.gmail.com> <793367e8-7151-354e-04ca-b472760c6af7@nielstenoever.net> <CABcZeBMT8JC_EQ0zd7nhjnTvPJY0szw+7kY8y=siD32f9vdT7Q@mail.gmail.com> <CAD499eJdLWK0dU-GGRy=_F=xACDP_EdOac2488_b6H4QBF_Raw@mail.gmail.com> <01F67955-FA6C-4191-9D5D-A9E1AB61703C@cisco.com>
In-Reply-To: <01F67955-FA6C-4191-9D5D-A9E1AB61703C@cisco.com>
From: Corinne Cath <corinnecath@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 14:13:35 +0300
Message-ID: <CAD499eJWsT+qshdLmwqdPB33Xag0xiz4+GjSaKip1i-x3C+_7A@mail.gmail.com>
To: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
Cc: Hrpc <hrpc@irtf.org>, Niels ten Oever <mail@nielstenoever.net>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000cb995a05934aa274"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/hrpc/A2KOWzHhD0foNLdPyMkK95E7aWM>
Subject: Re: [hrpc] Moving forward on draft-irtf-political
X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" <hrpc.irtf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.irtf.org/mailman/options/hrpc>, <mailto:hrpc-request@irtf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/hrpc/>
List-Post: <mailto:hrpc@irtf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:hrpc-request@irtf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc>, <mailto:hrpc-request@irtf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 11:14:16 -0000

HI Eliot,

Some quick comments in-line:

On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 1:49 PM Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:

> Corinne,
>
> Thanks.  Please see below.
>
> On 23 Sep 2019, at 20:47, Corinne Cath <corinnecath@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I think Stephane Couture made an important point: it is important to
> locate consensus on the politics of protocols in its respective academic
> disciplines and literatures, and have the document reflect that nuance.
>
>
> Agree.
>
>
> Furthermore, having followed this discussion for a while now (about a year
> or four) I feel part of the continued disagreement seems to stem from the
> fact that people have very different understandings of the word "political"
> and "politics”.
>
>
> Although, at least for me, characterizing that as disagreement is
> overstating the case,  I agree that providing clarity on the terms and the
> bounding of their meaning would put any thesis and argumentation on better
> footing.
>

Great - not sure how this is overstating the case though.

>
> For some it refers to the subtle ways by which protocol design is
> influenced by the values/interests/power dynamics between various folks
> present in the IETF and to others it refers to capital R or D conversations
> among politicians happening outside of the IETF, and yet to others its
> definition lies somewhere in the middle of these two.
>
>
> Again, some precision is called for.  I think you are talking about the
> politics of development of standards versus the political ramifications of
> the results.
>

I think you might have misunderstood what I was trying to say here. I am
not talking about the politics of development versus its effects. My
statement was meant to be specific to the politics inherent to design
processes, whether of legal or running code. I see this discussion as
separate from the discussion about their potential political ramifications.

>  This relationship could be explored.  For instance, I think those who
> participated in webrtc would have found that development process somewhat
> political, in terms of finding a way forward; but I would be hard pressed
> to find political ramifications from the results, in as much as broader
> society is impacted (again, my imagination may be limited).
>

I think some folks at netblocks might disagree with you here. But I will
leave it to them to say so.



> On the other hand, I could imagine the reverse, where the IETF
> standardized something with little if any controversy that turned out to
> have profound political ramifications.
>
> Asking Avri and you now with your co-chair hats, I think it would be
> helpful to pause for a moment and just reflect on the issues the have been
> raised with regard to this work and how to structure discussion going
> forward.
>

I think you might be confusing me with Mallory of ARTICLE19 - who is the
second co-chair of HRPC.


> For instance: is there agreement on the research question in the
> document?  If not, what is the point of considering anything else?  Has
> that question already been addressed elsewhere?  If not, great.  If so,
> what is the contribution this work is intended to provide?
>
> As you ponder this, it may be that there are multiple points of view to be
> heard.  As an RG we have the possibility to publish differing perspectives,
> and this has happened in the past, most notably in the Routing RG when it
> was active.
>
> Regards,
>

Cheers,

CCS

>
> Eliot
>


-- 
Corinne Cath - Speth
Ph.D. Candidate, Oxford Internet Institute & Alan Turing Institute

Web: www.oii.ox.ac.uk/people/corinne-cath
Email: ccath@turing.ac.uk & corinnecath@gmail.com
Twitter: @C_CS