Re: [hrpc] draft-irtf-hrpc-association-02

[Mallory Knodel <[e-mail]>]

Hi Stéphane and Joe,

Thanks for volunteering to incorporate the feedback that has come
through the list since the last version of this draft.[0]

Can you give us, or me and Avri offlist, a sense of your timeline for
another version?

And reach out to me if I can give you access to the github group[1] so
that you can track your changes.

Thanks!
-Mallory

[0] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-hrpc-association
[1] https://github.com/IRTF-HRPC

On 17/05/2019 18:21, Stéphane Couture wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> 
> So, as I mentioned in my last email, I re-read the document and am now
> sharing some comments. Forgive me if my style is too academic.
> 
> 
> 1. As it was mentioned earlier (by Avri I think), I think the stated
> goal of the document to "establish the causal link" is too strong. The
> notion of "causality" usually refers to a quantitative approach (for
> instance using regression analysis). The analysis provided in this
> document is in my view fundamentally qualitative, and I do not see how
> it can support a strong claim of causality. I also have to say that I
> come from the field of Science and Technology Studies, where causal
> relationships have been strongly debunked in favor of more complex
> relationships, so I am a bit doubtful about the term here.
> 
> 
> 2. The document is also saying that RFC8280, "established either causal
> or deterministic relationships,” but I don't see mention of "causal" in
> RFC820, but maybe I am wrong here.
> 
> 
> 3. There are many places we go too quickly from "machine communication"
> to "human communication,” and from "computing interoperability" to
> "human association.” For instance, at the end of the paper, it is
> written that "This lack of interoperation is harming the ability of
> people to set or negotiate their own terms on which they would like to
> assemble or associate.” However, many authors (and activists) are still
> praising proprietary social media for their capacity to facilitate
> assembly and collective action. And on the other hand, more
> interoperable platforms sometime lack user-friendliness or a wider user
> base to allow a wide range of people to participate. So, there might be
> other variables than "interoperability" to take into account to see how
> technologies facilitate association.
> 
> 
> On this, I think the last sentence should be unfolded :
> 
> 
> "The use of social-media platforms has enabled groups to associate, but
> it has also rendered users unable to change platforms, therefore leading
> to a sort of “forced association” that inhibits people to fully exercise
> their freedom of assembly and association.”
> 
> 
> What is a "forced association" ? Why is the inability to change
> platforms necessarily "leading" to "forced association" ? If there is a
> causal link to be made, I would think it is here.
> 
> 
> 4. Concerning the flow of the argument, it would be good to explain how,
> or why, each of these cases were chosen. It is stated that a "purposive
> sampling approach, aimed at the typicality and paradigmatic nature of
> the cases" was chosen, but I think there would be a need for better
> explanation on the "typicality and paradigmatic nature" of each of the
> cases.
> 
> 
> 5. Again, on the flow of the argument, it would be good to add a
> sentence at the end of each of the cases to explain how it is related to
> freedom of association. For many of them, we have to guess it.
> 
> 
> I also made some more specific comments in the document that I could
> share for the rewriting the new version.
> 
> 
> Best,
> 
> 
> Stéphane
> 
> 
> 
> Le jeu. 16 mai 2019 à 11:36, avri doria <[e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]>> a écrit :
> 
>     Hi,
> 
>     I think that sounds splendid.
> 
>     To both of you, please let Mallory and me know how we can help.
> 
>     thanks
> 
>     avri
> 
> 
>     On 16-May-19 11:05, Stéphane Couture wrote:
>     > Hi all,
>     >
>     > Mallory have asked me recently to act as editor, as way to contribute
>     > to the group. I was hesitant to do it alone, but I'd be happy to be
>     > "co-traveler" on this, if Joseph and others agree. 
>     >
>     > I also made comments on the draft, but for some reasons, my document
>     > didn't save, so I need to write them again. I'll send them asap.
>     >
>     > Best,
>     >
>     > Stéphane
>     >
>     > Le jeu. 16 mai 2019 à 10:50, avri doria <[e-mail]
>     <mailto:[e-mail]>
>     > <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>> a écrit :
>     >
>     >     Hi,
>     >
>     >     Thank you.
>     >
>     >     Any takers on the role of co-traveler?
>     >
>     >     thanks
>     >
>     >     avri
>     >
>     >
>     >     On 16-May-19 09:19, Joseph Lorenzo Hall wrote:
>     >     > I'm definitely interested in helping incorporate the flurry of
>     >     > feedback this draft received before IETF 104. I would love a
>     >     > co-traveler...
>     >     >
>     >     > On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 4:39 PM <[e-mail]
>     <mailto:[e-mail]>
>     >     <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>     >     > <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
>     <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:avri@doria..org>>>> wrote:
>     >     >
>     >     >     Hi,
>     >     >
>     >     >     Thanks to you and to Gisela for taking the draft as far as
>     >     it has
>     >     >     come.
>     >     >
>     >     >     Mallory and I will discuss how best to continue with this
>     >     draft. 
>     >     >     Definitely interested in hearing from anyone who is
>     >     interested in
>     >     >     being
>     >     >     part of an editorial effort to take it toward completion.
>     >     >
>     >     >     Thanks
>     >     >
>     >     >     avri
>     >     >
>     >     >
>     >     >     On 28-Mar-19 13:36, Niels ten Oever wrote:
>     >     >     > Thanks for all the great reviews and comments. It is
>     great to
>     >     >     see a lot of new energy on this draft.
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     > As mentioned, Gisela and I feel like we are not the best
>     >     persons
>     >     >     to integrate the proposed changes, so we would like to take
>     >     a step
>     >     >     back a lead authors and hope that others will step forward
>     >     to take
>     >     >     the lead to take this RG document further.
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     > If there are no others who want to work as co-authors,
>     perhaps
>     >     >     the reviewers (and RG participants and others) could propose
>     >     >     alternate text either in attached markdown document, or
>     as pull
>     >     >     requests on github (
>     >     >   
>     >   
>       https://github.com/IRTF-HRPC/drafts/blob/master/draft-association.md
>     >     >     )?
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     > Thanks in advance,
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     > Niels and Gisela
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     >
>     >     >
>     >     >     _______________________________________________
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>     <mailto:[e-mail]>
>     >     <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>>
>     >     >     https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>     <https://www.irtf..org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc>
>     >     >
>     >     >
>     >     >
>     >     > --
>     >     > Joseph Lorenzo Hall
>     >     > Chief Technologist, Center for Democracy & Technology
>     >     > [https://www..cdt.org <http://cdt.org> <http://cdt.org>
>     <https://www.cdt.org>]
>     >     > 1401 K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC 20005-3497
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>     >     <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>>, p: 202.407.8825, pgp:
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>     >     >
>     >     >
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-- 
Mallory Knodel
Head of Digital :: article19.org
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