Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-05.txt

[Niels ten Oever <[e-mail]>]

On Mon, Sep 23, 2019 at 07:59:29AM -0400, Andrew Sullivan wrote:
> Niels,
> 
> This post is a perfect example of one problem that I have been
> complaining about.  If everything that is ever touched upon by any
> politics is thereby itself "political", then your point is true
> (though, I submit, trivially so).  

The draft no longer makes the point that protocols are political. But that their development and implementation can be. That probably makes that discussion easier. 

> But you haven't actually shown
> that claim, and any time anyone objects to this point you simply
> trot out some authority to say, "But it is so true." But the
> argument is basically over whether those authors are right. So
> it's either begging the question or fallacious appeal to authority
> or both.
> 

I am not sure what kind of bar for 'showning my claim' you are setting here. I just wrote  that: 

as part of the colonial project, the European concept of what time was, was made the universal standard. That is why Greenwich Mean Time (in Great Britain) is used as a standard for the whole world. 

Do you want to contest this? Do you think this is not convincing? Or do I need to establish what GMT is through a historical analysis? Should I further elaborate how NTP faciliates the prumulgation of this standard? I just tried to give another example of how seemingly unpolitical protocols is part of a political process of reodering the world, and thus setting a specific norm. 

The idea of this draft is to clear the way for such research to happen, without having to re-discuss the base premisse of such research. But now we seem caught in a kind of catch 22. 


Best,

Niels


> Best regards,
> 
> A
> --
> Andrew Sullivan
> Please excuse my clumbsy thums.
> 
> On September 23, 2019 05:44:33 Niels ten Oever <[e-mail]> wrote:
> 
> > On 9/21/19 4:18 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote:
> > > 
> > > Hiya,
> > > 
> > > On 21/09/2019 15:13, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> > > > Again, let's take the example of SSL, which was designed by Netscape
> > > > for its own market purposes and became a de facto standard because
> > > > Netscape had the dominant browser and people wanted to interoperate
> > > > with it. What's poltical about that process?
> > > 
> > > To be fair, there was a lot of IETF politics around
> > > Netscape and Microsoft related to that and IIRC TLS
> > > was only called that as part of an explicit compromise.
> > > 
> > > I think Eliot's examples (and NTP, which I raised)
> > > are maybe better examples of less/apolitical standards
> > > and protocols than SSL/TLS.
> > 
> > Time, and its standardization, is a very political project.
> > Going back to Aristotle (Physics iv 10-14) there is the
> > difference between Chronos and Kairos, where Chronos became
> > the number to measure motion (kinesis). There have been many
> > other perceptions and measurements of time, that were able to
> > exist next to each other, but as part of the colonial project,
> > the European concept of what time was, was made the universal
> > standard. That is why Greenwich Mean Time (in Great Britain)
> > is used as a standard for the whole world.
> > 
> > There are also many stories about the development of
> > timezones, and their consequences, the way in which time
> > helped shape labor, life, and how it altered complete
> > societies.
> > 
> > I am not making a value judgment about this re-odering, but I
> > am trying to show that NTP, which helps synchronize to a
> > specific time regime, on which a lot of computing depends,
> > helps promulgate a specific, and political, ordering.
> > 
> > This book on the topic is quite interesting:
> > https://www.amazon.com/Colonisation-Time-Studies-Imperialism/dp/0719082714
> > 
> > Best,
> > 
> > Niels
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > Niels ten Oever
> > Researcher and PhD Candidate
> > DATACTIVE Research Group
> > University of Amsterdam
> > 
> > PGP fingerprint   2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488
> >                   643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
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> 
> 
> 

-- 

Niels ten Oever
Researcher and PhD Candidate
DATACTIVE Research Group
University of Amsterdam

PGP fingerprint	   2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488  
                   643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3