Re: [hrpc] Diverse participation (and the lack thereof) was: I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt

[[e-mail]]

Hi,

Was asking myself something similar; wondering whether it was a topic of
protocols even though the starting impetus for this work was about the
process of protocol develop in the IETF.

And thank you. We too want to avoid getting into trouble with the powers
that be again.

avri


On 12-Jul-19 07:49, Niels ten Oever wrote:
> Is hrpc the right venue for this discussion though? Might fit better in IAB or GEN AREA ? I don't want to get hrpc (and its chairs) into trouble (again). 
>
> Cheers,
>
> Niels
>
> On 7/12/19 1:29 PM, Ciavaglia, Laurent (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay) wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> It's an interesting discussion.
>> To Niels point on a "IETF/IRTF participation draft":
>>  - Should the evolution (and relative pervasiveness) of collaboration technologies/means/practices also be factored in?
>>  - For the participation from academics, I could share some experience and limited analysis on why some researchers participate, or don't or stop to. IETF and IRTF have different implications.
>>
>> --Laurent.
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: hrpc <[e-mail]> On Behalf Of Eliot Lear
>>> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2019 13:09
>>> To: Niels ten Oever <[e-mail]>
>>> Cc: [e-mail]
>>> Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt
>>>
>>> Ok, it’s fair enough to not have to cram everything in one draft.  I must
>>> admit my own concern about our self-selective tendencies, not simply
>>> because the disadvantage new entrants, but because it will limit our
>>> relevance over time.
>>>
>>> Eliot
>>>
>>>> On 12 Jul 2019, at 13:04, Niels ten Oever <[e-mail]>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Signed PGP part
>>>> Hi Elliot,
>>>>
>>>> On 7/12/19 12:10 PM, Eliot Lear wrote:
>>>>> Hi Niels
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12 Jul 2019, at 11:26, Niels ten Oever <[e-mail]
>>> <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
>>>>>> Many people in the IETF are convinced that the meetings are not
>>> intended to bring in new people, this actually has become an official non-
>>> goal in the meeting venue selection process per draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-
>>> venue-selection-process and draft-krishnan-ietf-meeting-policy. The
>>> current consensus seems to be that participating in the IETF is not
>>> dependent of physical participation, but can also be done through
>>> mailinglists and remote tools.
>>>>> As the editor of draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process, I
>>> don’t think you should shy away in your research from challenging that
>>> where, in your view, the IETF may have erred.
>>>> Don't worry, I will ;)
>>>>
>>>>  Whatever consensus the IETF has can change based on well reasoned
>>> argument, and the IRTF is expected to provide that.  Maybe not
>>> immediately, and maybe not without other precipitating factors that either
>>> don’t exist today or are not yet readily apparent, but this is really the
>>> only way change happens.
>>>> I think the the issue of participation would benefit from its own draft.
>>> Ideally it could show several trends:
>>>> - consolidation
>>>> 	-  total number of participants/draft authors/RFC
>>> authors/mailinglist contributors is affiliated to a low number of
>>> organizations
>>>> - academic exodus
>>>> 	- decreasing number of participants/draft authors/RFC
>>> authors/mailinglist contributors is affiliated with an academic
>>> institution
>>>> - geographical representation
>>>> - diversity
>>>>
>>>> and seek to explain to the data and trends, and ideally also provide
>>> recommendations.
>>>> I do personally not think it would be helpful to add this to draft-irtf-
>>> hrpc-political, but it could indeed be a follow-up draft. I would be happy
>>> to support the writing of that with quantitative mailinglist analysis.
>>>> I could also imagine this being part of this draft though:
>>>>
>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-iab-internet-consolidation-02
>>>>
>>>> Where it might have more impact than in hrpc.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Niels
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Eliot
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Niels ten Oever
>>>> Researcher and PhD Candidate
>>>> DATACTIVE Research Group
>>>> University of Amsterdam
>>>>
>>>> PGP fingerprint	   2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488
>>>>                   643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>