Re: [hrpc] Call for group adoption of draft-celi-irtf-hrpc-ipvc-01

Dear, everyone,

Just wanted to thank again for the discussion and reflections, and 
reiterate on Mallory's message. We will start creating the issues and 
discussions after the next IETF meeting ;)

Thank you,

On 05/10/2023 17:37, Mallory Knodel wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Many thanks for the thoughtful reflections. As Juliana said we would 
> like discussion to continue on the list and we can use GitHub for 
> documentation and author workflow.
> 
> It seems to me that the outcome of reviews notwithstanding, is that this 
> draft has support for adoption by the group. I’ll make that change in 
> the datatracker imminently.
> 
> Thanks, everyone!
> -M
> 
> On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 at 02:29, Jens Finkhaeuser <jens@interpeer.io 
> <mailto:jens@interpeer.io>> wrote:
> 
>     Hi all,
> 
>     On Oct 4, 2023 at 7:10 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com
>     <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>> wrote:
>>     Document: draft-celi-irtf-hrpc-ipvc-01.txt
>>
>>     Thanks for posting this. I have provided some comments below:
>>
>>     At a high level, I think that trying to combine the romantic/sexual
>>     partner case along with the child and elder abuse cases is a bit
>>     confusing. This is especially true for the case of children
>>     because it's of course very common for parents to engage in the
>>     kind of
>>     monitoring and access of their children discussed in S 3.3.
>>
>>     I know that there is a wide variety of opinions about the
>>     appropriateness of various kinds of monitoring/controls on children's
>>     Internet activity, but I don't think there's really anything like
>>     common ground that it's inherently abusive, so perhaps it would be
>>     better to confine the discussion here to the romantic partner setting,
>>     where the question of appropriateness seems more clear.
>     IMHO confining the scope to the romantic partner setting makes sense
>     for the reasons you outline. But I think a stronger argument can be
>     made to the opposite effect: how would you address child and elder
>     abuse? A document focused on either would likely adopt a significant
>     percentage of this document verbatim.
> 
>     The point of this document is to describe technological means by
>     which abuse may be enacted. It is _not_ claiming, and cannot claim,
>     that these means are inherently abusive. If I just pick "Impersonate
>     by using the victim's online identity to send false/forged messages
>     to others" as an example, I know people who regularly do this for
>     each other's convenience.
> 
>     Rather than confining the scope, perhaps the better approach would
>     be to restructure the document. Other drafts often follow the
>     structure of having a problem statement section (as well as a few
>     others) followed by the specific recommendations to address the
>     problem. The same approach could be adopted here: expand the
>     introduction, make the case for how IPV, child and elder abuse
>     relate to (perceived or real) power imbalances, control, etc. And
>     then refocus on how those can be enacted in the digital sphere.
> 
>     It's IMHO possible to explicitly acknowledge that these methods do
>     not have to be considered intrinsically abusive, and even make the
>     case that parental control can adopt some of these techniques
>     without being abusive. That being said, there is also a fine line
>     between some parenting styles and abuse; finer than many folk would
>     even understand. Again, however, it's not exactly the point of the
>     document to make this judgement.
> 
>     Jens
> 
>     Interpeer gUG (haftungsbeschraenkt), Greifenberg
>     Registered: Amtsgericht Augsburg, HRB 37686
>     Geschaeftsfuehrer: Jens Finkhaeuser
>     https://interpeer.io/
>     <https://interpeer.io/>
> 
> 
>     ----
>     From: jens@interpeer.io <mailto:jens@interpeer.io>
>     To: ekr@rtfm.com <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>, juliana@usuarix.net
>     <mailto:juliana@usuarix.net>, hrpc@irtf.org <mailto:hrpc@irtf.org>
>     Oct 5, 2023, 8:28:48 AM_______________________________________________
>     hrpc mailing list
>     hrpc@irtf.org <mailto:hrpc@irtf.org>
>     https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>     <https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> hrpc mailing list
> hrpc@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc

-- 
Sofía Celi
@claucece
Cryptographic research and implementation at many places, specially Brave.
Chair of hprc at IRTF, pquip at IETF, and anti-fraud at W3C.
Reach me out at: cherenkov@riseup.net
Website: https://sofiaceli.com/