Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-07.txt

[Niels ten Oever <[e-mail]>]

Dear Eric,

On 9/28/19 11:09 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> Niels,
> 
> Thanks for posting this.
> 
> I don't however, think that it addresses my primary concerns. It seems to me that the major change is that you now make explicit claims about the consensus of Science and Technology scholars and then some softer set of claims about what the IETF thinks.

Exactly, this follows my discussion with you and Eliot in which you both mentioned that these conclusions seemed obvious. 

> Neither of these claims of consensus seems to be supported by any real evidence, 

I think we have different ideas of what constitutes evidence. This work resulted, as stated in the doc, from participant observation, interviews and exchanges on mailinglist and during research group sessions.  The work is further structured by contextualizing it with a the literature review. You don't seem to appreciate this, or see this as valid research methods, which is fine of course, but then it will be hard for us to agree.

Furthermore, it is also not stated that this documents provides evidence. But again, if you want to give an historical account to illustrate a specific point, I would be more than happy to integrate it into the document.

> however, and reading S 4, it seems like that describes some perspectives that don't match the claims of general agreement in S 1.

I agree that abstract and the intro should be made more consistent with the discussion and conclusion. If we can agree on the latter, I will be more than happy to do that.

Best,

Niels

> 
> It seems to me that this document has fallen into the not uncommon situation where people object that fundamental changes are needed but instead you try to make minor textual changes in order to address some specific comments. ISTM that what's needed here is to go back to the beginning and state what the intended purpose of this document is and then we can discuss whether (1) that is a useful purpose and (2) whether it achieves it. Until then, I don';t think new revisions or textual changes are helpful.
> 



> -Ekr
> 
> 
> -Ekr
> 
> 
> On Sat, Sep 28, 2019 at 6:06 AM Niels ten Oever <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
> 
>     Hi all,
> 
>     Change log:
> 
>     - further qualified the conclusion and the discussion to reflect the differences in opinion,
>     - integrated the suggestions made by Stephane.
> 
>     Hope this helps!
> 
>     Best,
> 
>     Niels
> 
>     On 9/28/19 3:01 PM, [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> wrote:
>     >
>     > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
>     > This draft is a work item of the Human Rights Protocol Considerations RG of the IRTF.
>     >
>     >         Title           : Notes on networking standards and politics
>     >         Author          : Niels ten Oever
>     >       Filename        : draft-irtf-hrpc-political-07.txt
>     >       Pages           : 14
>     >       Date            : 2019-09-28
>     >
>     > Abstract:
>     >    The IETF cannot ordain what standards or protocols are to be used on
>     >    networks, but the standards development process in the IETF does have
>     >    an impact on society through its normative standards setting process.
>     >    This document aims to bring about a better understanding on the
>     >    political nature of standards and protocols.  Among other things, the
>     >    IETF's work affects what is perceived as technologically possible and
>     >    useful where networking technologies are being deployed, and its
>     >    standards reflect what is considered by the technical community to be
>     >    feasible and good practice.  Whereas there might not be agreement
>     >    among the Internet protocol community on the specific political
>     >    nature of the technological development process and its outputs, it
>     >    is generally agreed that standards and protocols are both products of
>     >    a political process, and they can also be used for political means.
>     >
>     >
>     > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>     > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-hrpc-political/
>     >
>     > There are also htmlized versions available at:
>     > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-political-07
>     > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-political-07
>     >
>     > A diff from the previous version is available at:
>     > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-irtf-hrpc-political-07
>     >
>     >
>     > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
>     > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org <http://tools.ietf.org>.
>     >
>     > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>     > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>     >
>     > _______________________________________________
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>     > [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
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>     >
> 
>     -- 
>     Niels ten Oever
>     Researcher and PhD Candidate
>     DATACTIVE Research Group
>     University of Amsterdam
> 
>     PGP fingerprint    2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 
>                        643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3
> 
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-- 
Niels ten Oever
Researcher and PhD Candidate
DATACTIVE Research Group
University of Amsterdam

PGP fingerprint	   2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488  
                   643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3