Re: 6455 Websockets and the relationship to HTTP

Patrick McManus <pmcmanus@mozilla.com> Fri, 02 December 2016 01:38 UTC

Return-Path: <ietf-http-wg-request+bounce-httpbisa-archive-bis2juki=lists.ie@listhub.w3.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C881129A4A for <ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 1 Dec 2016 17:38:29 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -9.796
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.796 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-2.896, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M5_KByI4sJ1Z for <ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 1 Dec 2016 17:38:27 -0800 (PST)
Received: from frink.w3.org (frink.w3.org [128.30.52.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1BFDB129A3A for <httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@lists.ietf.org>; Thu, 1 Dec 2016 17:38:27 -0800 (PST)
Received: from lists by frink.w3.org with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from <ietf-http-wg-request@listhub.w3.org>) id 1cCcki-0001OA-8g for ietf-http-wg-dist@listhub.w3.org; Fri, 02 Dec 2016 01:35:04 +0000
Resent-Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2016 01:35:04 +0000
Resent-Message-Id: <E1cCcki-0001OA-8g@frink.w3.org>
Received: from mimas.w3.org ([128.30.52.79]) by frink.w3.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from <pmcmanus@mozilla.com>) id 1cCckb-0008Q5-6L for ietf-http-wg@listhub.w3.org; Fri, 02 Dec 2016 01:34:57 +0000
Received: from www.ducksong.com ([192.155.95.102] helo=linode64.ducksong.com) by mimas.w3.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <pmcmanus@mozilla.com>) id 1cCckU-0003el-Gn for ietf-http-wg@w3.org; Fri, 02 Dec 2016 01:34:51 +0000
Received: from mail-qk0-f179.google.com (mail-qk0-f179.google.com [209.85.220.179]) by linode64.ducksong.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 60F983A01F for <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>; Thu, 1 Dec 2016 20:34:27 -0500 (EST)
Received: by mail-qk0-f179.google.com with SMTP id n21so264844254qka.3 for <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>; Thu, 01 Dec 2016 17:34:27 -0800 (PST)
X-Gm-Message-State: AKaTC03LbW4YX/eg55zgzaSDCpeCj4fLKRm/iOsgz/cmnvjqnSb5M1AKZ8bguEAvjK69mYuGdeLu/KaGwawOiw==
X-Received: by 10.55.19.97 with SMTP id d94mr41376151qkh.200.1480642467087; Thu, 01 Dec 2016 17:34:27 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.12.147.78 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Dec 2016 17:34:26 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <037D2D57-7423-4375-9FEC-50B3106F42ED@mnot.net>
References: <CAOdDvNqk7W_oNWUismMb-ZuhvdboZNDQ0YV2BLsbka-FGC-7oA@mail.gmail.com> <39F32B28-7116-478A-B02A-E8310EA6E189@mnot.net> <CABkgnnVZeLQGES5Dige8u+ukSgqSfJNKiCuL=oK3gQnAb_3LNw@mail.gmail.com> <CANatvzwoUYaC_YPTTF6fdwN5aOiwrttyH9Xj7xYVR1i1DZ27bA@mail.gmail.com> <037D2D57-7423-4375-9FEC-50B3106F42ED@mnot.net>
From: Patrick McManus <pmcmanus@mozilla.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 20:34:26 -0500
X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: <CAOdDvNrUsnQ2C8nugm3C9uCLnm4_=ztJmi4XqKYZegjVEofRYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOdDvNrUsnQ2C8nugm3C9uCLnm4_=ztJmi4XqKYZegjVEofRYQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
Cc: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>, Patrick McManus <pmcmanus@mozilla.com>, HTTP Working Group <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114009c04a76d80542a2f0af
Received-SPF: softfail client-ip=192.155.95.102; envelope-from=pmcmanus@mozilla.com; helo=linode64.ducksong.com
X-W3C-Hub-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.6
X-W3C-Hub-Spam-Report: AWL=-1.345, BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, W3C_AA=-1, W3C_WL=-1
X-W3C-Scan-Sig: mimas.w3.org 1cCckU-0003el-Gn add2c72a0c6d03f33e63a3f37b3dd9cc
X-Original-To: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
Subject: Re: 6455 Websockets and the relationship to HTTP
Archived-At: <http://www.w3.org/mid/CAOdDvNrUsnQ2C8nugm3C9uCLnm4_=ztJmi4XqKYZegjVEofRYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Resent-From: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
X-Mailing-List: <ietf-http-wg@w3.org> archive/latest/33081
X-Loop: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
Resent-Sender: ietf-http-wg-request@w3.org
Precedence: list
List-Id: <ietf-http-wg.w3.org>
List-Help: <http://www.w3.org/Mail/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-http-wg-request@w3.org?subject=unsubscribe>

On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 8:00 PM, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:

>
> That's another way to do it too, provided the latency hit isn't critical.
> Since you've already got the H2 connection open in the typical case for WS,
> I think that'd work well, but I could be unaware of some use case that
> requires WS on the first RT.



Doing it with settings on alpn=h2 is a little tricky.. if you need to make
a new connection (e.g. you have none open) for wss do you do it with
alpn=h2 and hope for the setting and then fall back to a new connection
with h1 and upgrade if it doesn't work? That's a new pile of round trips
for legacy servers. otoh doing it via alpn makes it easy by offering
wsoverh2 and h1 in the handshake.. it also makes it easy for the h1 server
to use alt-svc to advertise a better version elsewhere as we see quic do.