Re: signatures vs sf-date

Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> Tue, 24 January 2023 06:37 UTC

Return-Path: <ietf-http-wg-request+bounce-httpbisa-archive-bis2juki=lists.ie@listhub.w3.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE520C153CA0 for <ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 23 Jan 2023 22:37:04 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -7.747
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.747 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, MAILING_LIST_MULTI=-1, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b="FdU1K8Z6"; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b="aG5Pr35c"
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6mP63LiAe-Up for <ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 23 Jan 2023 22:37:00 -0800 (PST)
Received: from lyra.w3.org (lyra.w3.org [128.30.52.18]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 80D4FC1527BE for <httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@lists.ietf.org>; Mon, 23 Jan 2023 22:36:59 -0800 (PST)
Received: from lists by lyra.w3.org with local (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from <ietf-http-wg-request@listhub.w3.org>) id 1pKCvE-007Mnz-96 for ietf-http-wg-dist@listhub.w3.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2023 06:36:44 +0000
Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 06:36:44 +0000
Resent-Message-Id: <E1pKCvE-007Mnz-96@lyra.w3.org>
Received: from titan.w3.org ([128.30.52.76]) by lyra.w3.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from <mnot@mnot.net>) id 1pKCvD-007Mn7-GN for ietf-http-wg@listhub.w3.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2023 06:36:43 +0000
Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.27]) by titan.w3.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from <mnot@mnot.net>) id 1pKCvA-004QYP-1w for ietf-http-wg@w3.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2023 06:36:43 +0000
Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CA505C019F; Tue, 24 Jan 2023 01:36:30 -0500 (EST)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 24 Jan 2023 01:36:30 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h=cc :cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:date:from:from :in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to; s=fm1; t=1674542190; x= 1674628590; bh=ra1mbh+D+n88QBvfJieCf8SfAxO3ssg9LlMqckAO054=; b=F dU1K8Z6qH0SSLW95dDb0yr77sWmGExWqxYgqNCeQLDHRMzgaDCK+V0ON/4R+7pYn 67aqS+sk5ycf1diwYHkW/t6Ldzzs3QASz1lKMxkfEhyCQsGthxJxN1nGHjVVlGjZ gYCwDBjJBAqzw/7ogMhNumCqKITsI75wgOIiSftYNF2GULDiXZ8V/aIKtp/Xm/2j OHjZ8bvznBJgm3NQVX1f3BO38cEwkuqQ+9bN+lcDZcQMyjM5AV3U7fmP66JZh4ni OuY41ZR1BWhNmd36Utb2webDrU7g1pgtccfYXq8T/TPmB4l43gAElDOxAqUciz+J 8Vx9wX38AbsEsnETGoS2Q==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:date:date:feedback-id:feedback-id:from:from :in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy :x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; t=1674542190; x= 1674628590; bh=ra1mbh+D+n88QBvfJieCf8SfAxO3ssg9LlMqckAO054=; b=a G5Pr35c7FjCXjotZyCNCXqWS0Zfqol2ebSLDEEaLmkfry6HkjchHdKWcNejHefZn XigDc8gfTnlt0s2AEQ9w96mcFkHv46iLFfIZnBlzXaZz0ixY5Gga17qXu57mBs6u Lc3TyesI8SNklaIQ7ZPihfAr5BlyMd2ofkvxZkGJOcMV9fgYK/Fg6tl8nfVStRY8 areGQxcdqXuulYnHbfq9lNtt2dk05l0jsM5YSDhVdXfVDhb+5uKsqYbW3gX8pNNq PJ1RDzgcNNpLlIZ4i/vVDa7U+Tczj7hS/K0Klku9efW0bZm5+AnZmsI02Z2RB2JO teZKRVHePXKxeMNqv1awQ==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:bnzPY_HFKhn3c_3NVz8GZfWzs__UuA8BAgFn7zzW-kcNIrprPSIh4A> <xme:bnzPY8XpLuXRO84roPHxk2sJ_EfZPrtcnhWWC9KuHSMvUprB83cFOaI-qsiGALMOP ECukjFwEiFC9ig23Q>
X-ME-Received: <xmr:bnzPYxLf_AloVHSjD6pJ9vkHX2FeP7nzyoU5SyHgeF-hMPmmfFoXXcdQPKBElR3i4qIP>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvhedrudduledgleekucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptgfghfggufffkfhfvegjvffosehtqhhmtdhhtdejnecuhfhrohhmpeforghr khcupfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrth htvghrnhepfeduuddvudduveefjeefkeefleegteefjeeiieettefhgeffteejhfdvledu keejnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmh hnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvth
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:bnzPY9GSkPY6rZ6nVVNhP3UwuoroGpxA-obICncO7UvkL2fQreHZHw> <xmx:bnzPY1UNZrKWrBdbYR80TGnROKKmC-mgYeTHDiwBbwvkmI5ImieLtQ> <xmx:bnzPY4OnsCaqNLbqe_k5ICK2EPiXYX8mDPCUaBHE5g29bEGr_Rjyxw> <xmx:bnzPY0fHXrbnSsCezBNAmmKmr2lLMY-2GRvDPihJXxzDANKX2t_CJw>
Feedback-ID: ie6694242:Fastmail
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Tue, 24 Jan 2023 01:36:30 -0500 (EST)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0)
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 17:36:17 +1100
Message-Id: <3C1E02FA-C2AA-4420-B3E1-A482230E0BB7@mnot.net>
References: <9f446816-7588-46af-6501-3508c1993752@gmx.de>
Cc: Lucas Pardue <lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.com>, ietf-http-wg@w3.org
In-Reply-To: <9f446816-7588-46af-6501-3508c1993752@gmx.de>
To: Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>
X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (20D47)
Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.111.4.27; envelope-from=mnot@mnot.net; helo=out3-smtp.messagingengine.com
X-W3C-Hub-DKIM-Status: validation passed: (address=mnot@mnot.net domain=mnot.net), signature is good
X-W3C-Hub-DKIM-Status: validation passed: (address=mnot@mnot.net domain=messagingengine.com), signature is good
X-W3C-Hub-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.8
X-W3C-Hub-Spam-Report: BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, W3C_AA=-1, W3C_DB=-1, W3C_IRA=-1, W3C_IRR=-3, W3C_WL=-1
X-W3C-Scan-Sig: titan.w3.org 1pKCvA-004QYP-1w dfbb9e166f5bc98c6ae29a2b22d34f0b
X-Original-To: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
Subject: Re: signatures vs sf-date
Archived-At: <https://www.w3.org/mid/3C1E02FA-C2AA-4420-B3E1-A482230E0BB7@mnot.net>
Resent-From: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
X-Mailing-List: <ietf-http-wg@w3.org> archive/latest/40708
X-Loop: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
Resent-Sender: ietf-http-wg-request@w3.org
Precedence: list
List-Id: <ietf-http-wg.w3.org>
List-Help: <https://www.w3.org/Mail/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-http-wg-request@w3.org?subject=unsubscribe>

> On 24 Jan 2023, at 4:52 pm, Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de> wrote:
> 
> On 24.01.2023 01:01, Mark Nottingham wrote:
>> 
>>>> On 24 Jan 2023, at 3:09 am, Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de> wrote:
>>> 
>>> What about a dictionary, where you're only looking for "x" (expected to
>>> be an integer), but the sender adds an extension parameter "y" as sf-date?
>>> 
>>> A conforming parser (of the current spec) will reject the whole field
>>> value, and the recipient will not be able to see the value for "x".
>> 
>> If you are parsing a field that uses Date, its specification will refer to sf-bis, not RFC8941. Therefore, you will need to use an implementation that claims conformance to sf-bis. What's the problem?
> 
> The problem is that a generic library will not lookup the header definition.

That’s immaterial; it’s the *use* of the library that’s important. 

> IMHO an important point of SF is that we can throw fields at the parser
> without *any* out of band information. 

That’s not true; you’ve always needed field specific information (the top level type). This was discussed at length and widely known, so the assertion is a bit surprising. 



> As we can see, this only works
> great until we extend the format.
> 
> Best regards, Julian