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From: Josh Cohen <joshco@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 22:30:11 -0700
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To: Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>
Cc: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
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Subject: Re: Method Mania
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Same here..  Patrick also said:
>
> "The better question is under what circumstances do we want to allow
> those devices to "break" and force them to fix the implementations?"


Maybe a reasonable interpretation of Patrick's statement is that it's time
to be *bold.  *HTTP/1.1 RFC2616 was published in 1999.  It's the 25 year
anniversary. =F0=9F=A5=B3  In the intervening years, the IETF has done a gr=
eat job
evolving the transport.  That's created the foundation for things we
couldn't do back then.   I don't think it was a coincidence that Lisa
Dusseault was in the room.  The universe is speaking to us.  Maybe it's
time for a WebDAV re-spin..  The web could also have standardized pub/sub.

If we add new functionality that users and devs want, and makes admin life
easier, that could be helpful in driving better implementations, and uptake
of HTTP/2/3 and masque proxying.





On Sat, Jul 27, 2024 at 10:07=E2=80=AFPM Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx=
.de>
wrote:

> On 27.07.2024 16:44, Patrick Meenan wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jul 27, 2024 at 4:23=E2=80=AFAM Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@=
gmx.de
> > <mailto:julian.reschke@gmx.de>> wrote:
> >
> >     On 26.07.2024 00:27, Josh Cohen wrote:
> >      > On the httpwg agenda at IETF 120 were a proposal for a new QUERY
> >     method
> >      > and Braid, which has subscription functionality that overloads
> >     the GET
> >      > method.
> >      >
> >      > What I am curious about is if, at this point in the evolution of
> the
> >      > web, it is now safe to add new methods for new functionality.
> >     I've been
> >      > reading up on HTTP/2/3 and it seems that nowadays, connections a=
re
> >      > end-to-end secure and are essentially tunneled through middle
> boxes,
> >      > including HTTP/1.1 proxies. I'm still just wrapping my head arou=
nd
> >      > MASQUE, but it looks like it can handle arbitrary methods.
> Similarly
> >      > origin servers have evolved to support arbitrary methods.
> >
> >     It always has been "safe", when https was used.
> >
> >
> > https is not "safe" in practical terms because of middleboxes that
> > intercept the connections. It is very common in enterprise deployments
> > where they install local trust anchors on the client devices and use
> > mitm software to inspect the traffic.
> > ...
>
> I meant "safe" wrt deploying new HTTP methods.
>
> When was the last time you encountered a problem?
>
> Best regards, Julian
>
>
>
>
>

--=20

---
*Josh Co*hen

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Same here..=C2=A0 Patrick also said:<blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex">&quot;<span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-s=
ize:12pt">The
better question is under what circumstances do we want to allow those devic=
es
to &quot;break&quot; and force them to fix the implementations?&quot;</span=
></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Maybe a reasonable interpretation of Patr=
ick&#39;s statement is that it&#39;s time to be=C2=A0<i>bold.=C2=A0=C2=A0</=
i>HTTP/1.1 RFC2616 was published in 1999.=C2=A0 It&#39;s the 25 year annive=
rsary.=C2=A0=F0=9F=A5=B3 =C2=A0In the intervening years, the IETF has done =
a great job evolving the transport.=C2=A0 That&#39;s created the foundation=
 for things we couldn&#39;t do back then.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I don&#39;t think it =
was a coincidence that Lisa Dusseault was in the room.=C2=A0 The universe i=
s speaking to us.=C2=A0 Maybe it&#39;s time for a WebDAV re-spin..=C2=A0 Th=
e web could also have standardized pub/sub.=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div><br></div=
><div>If we add new functionality that users and devs want, and makes admin=
 life easier, that could be helpful in driving better implementations, and =
uptake of HTTP/2/3 and masque proxying.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div>=
<div><i><br></i></div><div><i><br></i></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Jul 27, 2024 at 10:07=
=E2=80=AFPM Julian Reschke &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:julian.reschke@gmx.de">jul=
ian.reschke@gmx.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);=
padding-left:1ex">On 27.07.2024 16:44, Patrick Meenan wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Sat, Jul 27, 2024 at 4:23=E2=80=AFAM Julian Reschke &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:julian.reschke@gmx.de" target=3D"_blank">julian.reschke@gmx.de</a><b=
r>
&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:julian.reschke@gmx.de" target=3D"_blank">=
julian.reschke@gmx.de</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 26.07.2024 00:27, Josh Cohen wrote:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; On the httpwg agenda at IETF 120 were a propo=
sal for a new QUERY<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0method<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; and Braid, which has subscription functionali=
ty that overloads<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the GET<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; method.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; What I am curious about is if, at this point =
in the evolution of the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; web, it is now safe to add new methods for ne=
w functionality.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I&#39;ve been<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; reading up on HTTP/2/3 and it seems that nowa=
days, connections are<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; end-to-end secure and are essentially tunnele=
d through middle boxes,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; including HTTP/1.1 proxies. I&#39;m still jus=
t wrapping my head around<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; MASQUE, but it looks like it can handle arbit=
rary methods.=C2=A0 Similarly<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; origin servers have evolved to support arbitr=
ary methods.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It always has been &quot;safe&quot;, when https was=
 used.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; https is not &quot;safe&quot; in practical terms because of middleboxe=
s that<br>
&gt; intercept the connections. It is very common in enterprise deployments=
<br>
&gt; where they install local trust anchors on the client devices and use<b=
r>
&gt; mitm software to inspect the traffic.<br>
&gt; ...<br>
<br>
I meant &quot;safe&quot; wrt deploying new HTTP methods.<br>
<br>
When was the last time you encountered a problem?<br>
<br>
Best regards, Julian<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div><span class=3D"gmail_si=
gnature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span></span><div><p><font face=3D"monospace, monosp=
ace">---</font><span style=3D"font-family:monospace,monospace"><br></span><=
b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Josh Co</span></b><span st=
yle=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">hen=C2=A0</span></p><p style=3D"back=
ground-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-repeat:initial"=
><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif"></span></p><p></p></div></div=
></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>

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