Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical qvalues
Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> Mon, 21 January 2013 10:43 UTC
Return-Path: <ietf-http-wg-request@listhub.w3.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BF4521F86B3 for <ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 21 Jan 2013 02:43:55 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -9.369
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.369 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.230, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ead10W7u0n1C for <ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 21 Jan 2013 02:43:54 -0800 (PST)
Received: from frink.w3.org (frink.w3.org [128.30.52.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86FC821F86B1 for <httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@lists.ietf.org>; Mon, 21 Jan 2013 02:43:54 -0800 (PST)
Received: from lists by frink.w3.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from <ietf-http-wg-request@listhub.w3.org>) id 1TxEpT-0000nv-40 for ietf-http-wg-dist@listhub.w3.org; Mon, 21 Jan 2013 10:42:15 +0000
Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 10:42:15 +0000
Resent-Message-Id: <E1TxEpT-0000nv-40@frink.w3.org>
Received: from lisa.w3.org ([128.30.52.41]) by frink.w3.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from <mnot@mnot.net>) id 1TxEpO-0000nG-AO for ietf-http-wg@listhub.w3.org; Mon, 21 Jan 2013 10:42:10 +0000
Received: from mxout-07.mxes.net ([216.86.168.182]) by lisa.w3.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from <mnot@mnot.net>) id 1TxEpN-00080v-3v for ietf-http-wg@w3.org; Mon, 21 Jan 2013 10:42:10 +0000
Received: from [192.168.1.80] (unknown [118.209.240.13]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9233D22E1F3; Mon, 21 Jan 2013 05:41:46 -0500 (EST)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\))
From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
In-Reply-To: <6E9D9BB9-A5F5-417A-A640-AF03AFCC6496@gbiv.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 21:41:42 +1100
Cc: "Julian F. Reschke" <julian.reschke@gmx.de>, HTTP Working Group <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <E4E8D79C-E420-45FE-82D0-00C83242F398@mnot.net>
References: <50F6CD98.8080802@gmx.de> <99A8B4D1-BE1B-4965-9B78-1EC90455E102@mnot.net> <F4C2A095-50C7-451B-9AFF-A200592CCB4D@gbiv.com> <98F554C9-4FCB-47E4-A018-FE02558FEA49@mnot.net> <6E9D9BB9-A5F5-417A-A640-AF03AFCC6496@gbiv.com>
To: "Roy T. Fielding" <fielding@gbiv.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499)
Received-SPF: pass client-ip=216.86.168.182; envelope-from=mnot@mnot.net; helo=mxout-07.mxes.net
X-W3C-Hub-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.3
X-W3C-Hub-Spam-Report: AWL=-3.309, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001
X-W3C-Scan-Sig: lisa.w3.org 1TxEpN-00080v-3v 34e69e4b3794a7a7859150f823695efa
X-Original-To: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
Subject: Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical qvalues
Archived-At: <http://www.w3.org/mid/E4E8D79C-E420-45FE-82D0-00C83242F398@mnot.net>
Resent-From: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
X-Mailing-List: <ietf-http-wg@w3.org> archive/latest/16079
X-Loop: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
Resent-Sender: ietf-http-wg-request@w3.org
Precedence: list
List-Id: <ietf-http-wg.w3.org>
List-Help: <http://www.w3.org/Mail/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-http-wg-request@w3.org?subject=unsubscribe>
On 21/01/2013, at 7:37 PM, Roy T. Fielding <fielding@gbiv.com> wrote: > On Jan 20, 2013, at 1:51 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> On 20/01/2013, at 11:52 PM, Roy T. Fielding <fielding@gbiv.com> wrote: >> >>> On Jan 19, 2013, at 6:34 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>> >>>> Julian et al, >>>> >>>> I think the important bit here is the context that we're talking about the semantics of an expressed preference -- which can be freely ignored, or selectively applied, without affecting conformance. The important thing is that the preference itself have clear semantics, which I think Roy's change does (especially in concert with changes elsewhere). >>>> >>>> As such, I think the relevant question is whether this is specific to A-L, or all A-* that take qvalues. Roy, thoughts? >>> >>> I am pretty sure it is specific to languages. Accept has never been >>> treated as an ordered list, Accept-Encoding was originally designed >>> to prefer the smallest representation (changing that to qvalues was >>> unfortunate), and Accept-Charset is almost deprecated at this point. >> >> >> So, wouldn't the same arguments (minus the implementation status) apply to Accept? >> >> I.e., if it's just a preference, and the server is free to choose among the preferences anyway (or even ignore them), why *not* say Accept is ordered? > > I don't see any value in that given the lack of users setting the > values for Accept directly (outside of command-line tool usage) > and no assumption among UAs that Accept is ordered. > > Apache httpd resolves ties in type negotiation using the > internal ordering of representation variants. That is unlike > languages, for which the code deliberately checks the order received > in Accept-Language for resolving ties. > > Regarding proactive negotiation in HTTP/2, I'll note that Waka > strips all negotiation fields. I find the entire feature revolting, > from every architectural perspective, and would take the opportunity > of 2.x to remove it entirely. The value is that Accept-* headers all use qvalues the same way, which is much less confusing for pretty much everybody, and paves the way for a potentially simpler approach in 2.0 (your feelings about having proactive negotiation at all noted). Again, implementations are free to ignore it -- this is merely the semantics of the preference, not constraints on how it's followed. -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/
- #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical qvalu… Julian Reschke
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Julian Reschke
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Roy T. Fielding
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Julian Reschke
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Roy T. Fielding
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Julian Reschke
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Julian Reschke
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Amos Jeffries
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Julian Reschke
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Amos Jeffries
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Julian Reschke
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Amos Jeffries
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Julian Reschke
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Roy T. Fielding
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Nicholas Shanks
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Amos Jeffries
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Nico Williams
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Adrien W. de Croy
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Adrien W. de Croy
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Amos Jeffries
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Mark Nottingham
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Roy T. Fielding
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Mark Nottingham
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… James M Snell
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Mark Nottingham
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Adrien W. de Croy
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Amos Jeffries
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Mark Nottingham
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Roy T. Fielding
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Mark Nottingham
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Nicholas Shanks
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… James M Snell
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Adrien W. de Croy
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Amos Jeffries
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Adrien W. de Croy
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Roy T. Fielding
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Adrien W. de Croy
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Nicholas Shanks
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Julian Reschke
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Mark Nottingham
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Julian Reschke
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Roy T. Fielding
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Mark Nottingham
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Julian Reschke
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Amos Jeffries
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Amos Jeffries
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Julian Reschke
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Amos Jeffries
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Julian Reschke
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Julian Reschke
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Julian Reschke
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Mark Nottingham
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Julian Reschke
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Julian Reschke
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Mark Nottingham
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Eric J. Bowman
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… James M Snell
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Martin Thomson
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Eric J. Bowman
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Roy T. Fielding
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Eric J. Bowman
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Nicholas Shanks
- Re: #428 Accept-Language ordering for identical q… Julian Reschke