Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit and Unidirectional Streams
William Chan (陈智昌) <willchan@chromium.org> Wed, 01 May 2013 19:59 UTC
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Date: Wed, 01 May 2013 16:58:44 -0300
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From: "William Chan (陈智昌)" <willchan@chromium.org>
To: Roberto Peon <grmocg@gmail.com>
Cc: James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com>, HTTP Working Group <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit and Unidirectional Streams
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I agree with that, although there's no current WebSocket API use case for server initiated bidirectional streams. I could imagine it in the future though. On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 4:55 PM, Roberto Peon <grmocg@gmail.com> wrote: > I still want to be able to support the WS API over HTTP/2. It would be > tragic to have N+1 connections instead of 1 when 1 works better anyway... > > -=R > > > On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 10:46 AM, William Chan (陈智昌) <willchan@chromium.org > > wrote: > >> The only benefit to that is supporting non-HTTP/2 application layering >> semantics, which is intended not to change from HTTP/1.X. So there's >> currently no use to allow the server to initiate streams with the >> client=>server direction open. >> >> I consider the current trend of our discussions to tend towards >> eliminating complexity and targeting for HTTP/2 application layering >> semantics. I think if we have another use case come up that would require >> supporting server initiated bidirectional streams, I think at that point >> it'd be worthwhile to revisit how we do this. >> >> I'd like to hear from others if they disagree with my assessment of how >> most people feel so far. FWIW, I personally would like us to support server >> initiated bidirectional streams. >> >> >> On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 2:26 PM, James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Why not just bring the UNIDIRECTIONAL flag back as a PUSH_PROMISE >>> frame-specific flag? If a PUSH_PROMISE frame has the unidirectional >>> flag set, the stream is automatically half-closed in the return >>> direction. If the flag is unset, the promised stream remains half-open >>> until the client half-closes or a rst_stream is sent. >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 2:44 PM, William Chan (陈智昌) >>> <willchan@chromium.org> wrote: >>> > Remember we originally *had* a flag for UNIDIRECTIONAL, which we >>> removed >>> > because it was redundant in the traditional HTTP use cases. >>> > >>> > >>> > On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 6:39 PM, Roberto Peon <grmocg@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> At worst, we burn a flag which states it is half-closed or >>> unidirectional, >>> >> or provide some other information which identifies the IANA port >>> number for >>> >> the overlayed protocol or something. >>> >> Anyway, *shrug*. >>> >> -=R >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 2:32 PM, William Chan (陈智昌) >>> >> <willchan@chromium.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 6:17 PM, James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>> >>>> +1 on this. I like this approach. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> On Apr 29, 2013 2:15 PM, "Roberto Peon" <grmocg@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> I had thought to provide no explicit limit for PUSH_PROMISE, just >>> as >>> >>>>> there is no limit to the size of a webpage, or the number of links >>> upon it. >>> >>>>> The memory requirements for PUSH are similar or the same (push >>> should >>> >>>>> consume a single additional bit of overhead per url, when one >>> considers that >>> >>>>> the URL should be parsed, enqueued, etc.). >>> >>>>> If the browser isn't done efficiently, or, the server is for some >>> >>>>> unknown reason being stupid and attempting to DoS the browser with >>> many >>> >>>>> resources that it will never use, then the client sends RST_STREAM >>> for the >>> >>>>> ones it doesn't want, and makes a request on its own. all tidy. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I don't feel too strongly here. I do feel like this is more of an >>> edge >>> >>> case, possibly important for forward proxies (or reverse proxies >>> speaking to >>> >>> backends over a multiplexed channel like HTTP/2). It doesn't really >>> matter >>> >>> for my browser, so unless servers chime in and say they'd prefer a >>> limit, >>> >>> I'm fine with this. >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> As for PUSH'd streams, the easiest solution is likely to assume >>> that >>> >>>>> the stream starts out in a half-closed state. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I looked into our earlier email threads and indeed this is what we >>> agreed >>> >>> on ( >>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/2013JanMar/1106.html). >>> >>> I voiced some mild objection since if you view the HTTP/2 framing >>> layer as a >>> >>> transport for another application protocol, then bidirectional server >>> >>> initiated streams might be nice. But in absence of any such >>> protocol, this >>> >>> is a nice simplification. >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> -=R >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 12:33 PM, William Chan (陈智昌) >>> >>>>> <willchan@chromium.org> wrote: >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 3:46 PM, James M Snell <jasnell@gmail.com >>> > >>> >>>>>> wrote: >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> On Apr 29, 2013 11:36 AM, "William Chan (陈智昌)" >>> >>>>>>> <willchan@chromium.org> wrote: >>> >>>>>>> > >>> >>>>>>> [snip] >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> > >>> >>>>>>> > >>> >>>>>>> > Oops, forgot about that. See, the issue with that is now we've >>> made >>> >>>>>>> > PUSH_PROMISE as potentially expensive as a HEADERS frame, >>> since it does more >>> >>>>>>> > than just simple stream id allocation. I guess it's not really >>> a huge issue, >>> >>>>>>> > since if it's used correctly (in the matter you described), >>> then it >>> >>>>>>> > shouldn't be too expensive. If clients attempt to abuse it, >>> then servers >>> >>>>>>> > should probably treat it in a similar manner as they treat >>> people trying to >>> >>>>>>> > abuse header compression in all other frames with the header >>> block, and kill >>> >>>>>>> > the connection accordingly. >>> >>>>>>> > >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Not just "potentially" as expensive.. As soon as we get a push >>> >>>>>>> promise we need to allocate state and hold onto it for an >>> indefinite period >>> >>>>>>> of time. We do not yet know exactly when that compression >>> context can be let >>> >>>>>>> go because it has not yet been bound to stream state. Do push >>> streams all >>> >>>>>>> share the same compression state? Do those share the same >>> compression state >>> >>>>>>> as the originating stream? The answers might be obvious but they >>> haven't yet >>> >>>>>>> been written down. >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> I guess I don't see per-stream state as being that expensive. >>> >>>>>> Compression contexts are a fixed state on a per-connection basis, >>> meaning >>> >>>>>> that additional streams don't add to that state. The main cost, >>> as I see it, >>> >>>>>> is the decompressed headers. I said potentially since that >>> basically only >>> >>>>>> means the URL (unless there are other headers important for >>> caching due to >>> >>>>>> Vary), and additional headers can come in the HEADERS frame. Also, >>> >>>>>> PUSH_PROMISE doesn't require allocating other state, like >>> backend/DB >>> >>>>>> connections, if you only want to be able to handle >>> (#MAX_CONCURRENT_STREAMs) >>> >>>>>> of those backend connections in parallel. >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> If they're not specified, then we should specify it, but I've >>> always >>> >>>>>> understood the header compression contexts to be directional and >>> apply to >>> >>>>>> all frames sending headers in a direction. Therefore there should >>> be two >>> >>>>>> compression contexts in a connection, one for header blocks being >>> sent and >>> >>>>>> one for header blocks being received. If this is controversial, >>> let's fork a >>> >>>>>> thread and discuss it. >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >> >>> >>>>>>> >> >>> >>>>>>> >> > As far as the potential problem above, the root problem is >>> that >>> >>>>>>> >> > when you >>> >>>>>>> >> > have limits you can have hangs. We see this all the time >>> today >>> >>>>>>> >> > with browsers >>> >>>>>>> >> > (it's only reason people do domain sharding so they can >>> bypass >>> >>>>>>> >> > limits). I'm >>> >>>>>>> >> > not sure I see the value of introducing the new proposed >>> limits. >>> >>>>>>> >> > They don't >>> >>>>>>> >> > solve the hangs, and I don't think the granularity >>> addresses any >>> >>>>>>> >> > of the >>> >>>>>>> >> > costs in a finer grained manner. I'd like to hear >>> clarification >>> >>>>>>> >> > on what >>> >>>>>>> >> > costs the new proposed limits will address. >>> >>>>>>> >> >>> >>>>>>> >> I don't believe that the proposal improves the situation >>> enough >>> >>>>>>> >> (or at >>> >>>>>>> >> all) to justify the additional complexity. That's something >>> that >>> >>>>>>> >> you >>> >>>>>>> >> need to assess for yourself. This proposal provides more >>> granular >>> >>>>>>> >> control, but it doesn't address the core problem, which is >>> that >>> >>>>>>> >> you >>> >>>>>>> >> and I can only observe each other actions after some delay, >>> which >>> >>>>>>> >> means that we can't coordinate those actions perfectly. Nor >>> can >>> >>>>>>> >> be >>> >>>>>>> >> build a perfect model of the other upon which to observe and >>> act >>> >>>>>>> >> upon. >>> >>>>>>> >> The usual protocol issue. >>> >>>>>>> > >>> >>>>>>> > >>> >>>>>>> > OK then. My proposal is to add a new limit for PUSH_PROMISE >>> frames >>> >>>>>>> > though, separately from the MAX_CONCURRENT_STREAMS limit, >>> since PUSH_PROMISE >>> >>>>>>> > exists as a promise to create a stream, explicitly so we don't >>> have to count >>> >>>>>>> > it toward the existing MAX_CONCURRENT_STREAMS limit (I >>> searched the spec and >>> >>>>>>> > this seems to be inadequately specced). Roberto and I >>> discussed that before >>> >>>>>>> > and may have written an email somewhere in spdy-dev@, but I >>> don't think >>> >>>>>>> > we've ever raised it here. >>> >>>>>>> > >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Well, there is an issue tracking it in the github repo now, at >>> >>>>>>> least. As currently defined in the spec, it definitely needs >>> to be >>> >>>>>>> addressed. >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> Great. You guys are way better than I am about tracking all known >>> >>>>>> issues. I just have it mapped fuzzily in my head :) >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> > >>> >> >> >
- Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit and Un… James M Snell
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… Martin Thomson
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… James M Snell
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… Martin Thomson
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… James M Snell
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… Martin Thomson
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… James M Snell
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… Poul-Henning Kamp
- RE: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… RUELLAN Herve
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… James M Snell
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… William Chan (陈智昌)
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… Martin Thomson
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… William Chan (陈智昌)
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… James M Snell
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… William Chan (陈智昌)
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… James M Snell
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… James M Snell
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… William Chan (陈智昌)
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… Roberto Peon
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… James M Snell
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… James M Snell
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… William Chan (陈智昌)
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… Roberto Peon
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… William Chan (陈智昌)
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… Roberto Peon
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… William Chan (陈智昌)
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… Roberto Peon
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… Martin Thomson
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… James M Snell
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… William Chan (陈智昌)
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… Roberto Peon
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… William Chan (陈智昌)
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… James M Snell
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… William Chan (陈智昌)
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… James M Snell
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… Martin Thomson
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… James M Snell
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… Martin Thomson
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… William Chan (陈智昌)
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… William Chan (陈智昌)
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… William Chan (陈智昌)
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… James M Snell
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… James M Snell
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… Roberto Peon
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… James M Snell
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… William Chan (陈智昌)
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… Roberto Peon
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… Roberto Peon
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… William Chan (陈智昌)
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… James M Snell
- Re: Design Issue: Max Concurrent Streams Limit an… Martin Thomson