Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-early-hints-status-code-00.txt
Andy Green <andy@warmcat.com> Thu, 03 November 2016 10:36 UTC
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Message-ID: <1478169112.7798.799.camel@warmcat.com>
From: Andy Green <andy@warmcat.com>
To: Cory Benfield <cory@lukasa.co.uk>, "Roy T. Fielding" <fielding@gbiv.com>
Cc: Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>, Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>, HTTP Working Group <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2016 18:31:52 +0800
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Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-early-hints-status-code-00.txt
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On Thu, 2016-11-03 at 09:08 +0000, Cory Benfield wrote: > > > > On 2 Nov 2016, at 22:50, Roy T. Fielding <fielding@gbiv.com> wrote: > > > Sure. But my comment was about having *well-oiled* extension > mechanisms. Put another way, if you have exactly one place to put an > extension, then that is where all extensions will be put. This will Just jumping in with my tiny bit of experience on this narrow subject of handwaving standardized extensions. >From the point of view of ws, extensions were an almost complete failure and came into being to stop the endless dithering (let us recall, there were like 80 versions of that standard...) at least in part caused by Google trying to mutate it into spdy. It only got out the door by the sleight of hand of pushing compression and mux into "extensions" to be discussed later. Ws mux was stillborn, because Google passed on the honour and it instead became http/2. So one of the two major targets for "ws extensions" said "nope", and the only ws extension in any kind of actual use AFAIK is RFC7692 permessage-deflate. Doing even that properly (ie, streaming the deflate in chunks, rather than allocating for inflate of the whole message) has radical impacts on the whole architecture, and supporting generic extensions even more so ---> > greatly increase the speed which with the bug-finding use-case will ...therefore many ws implementations support neither extensions in general nor permessage-deflate specifically. (You might say, "that's OK because they are extensions", but they architecturally decided they repudiated the whole idea of extensions). So no, it didn't increase any bug finding. >From this experience, I think maybe the standards should avoid looking towards Founding An Empire That Lasts A Thousands Years and just have it do what it should do. If you look at http, his "extensions" were very natural compared to ws reserved bits that will never come into use, unused extensions bar one, you could just get additional random headers with a well-defined way to skip what you didn't understand at the per-header level. The paleo-headers were "extensible", they were not "extensions". Or .well-known, as another example of a positive pattern, that didn't extend http at all but is open-ended for what it does. I want to suggest "extensions" are a sign the definition of the protocol has failed... -Andy
- Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ea… Kazuho Oku
- Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-kazuh… Julian Reschke
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Cory Benfield
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Julian Reschke
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Kazuho Oku
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Julian Reschke
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Kazuho Oku
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Julian Reschke
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Cory Benfield
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Tatsuhiro Tsujikawa
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Mike Bishop
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Stefan Eissing
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Cory Benfield
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Mike Bishop
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Roy T. Fielding
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Kazuho Oku
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Cory Benfield
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Kazuho Oku
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Patrick McManus
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Werner Baumann
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Cory Benfield
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Mike Bishop
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Werner Baumann
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Roy T. Fielding
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Kazuho Oku
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Willy Tarreau
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Cory Benfield
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Andy Green
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Werner Baumann
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Cory Benfield
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Tatsuhiro Tsujikawa
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Stefan Eissing
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Mike Bishop
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Roy T. Fielding
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Mark Nottingham
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Martin Thomson
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Kazuho Oku
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Mike Bishop
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Mark Nottingham
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Julian Reschke
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Julian Reschke
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Julian Reschke
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Alex Rousskov
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Julian Reschke
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Alex Rousskov
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Kazuho Oku
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Kari Hurtta
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Julian Reschke
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Kazuho Oku
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Cory Benfield
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Kazuho Oku
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-ear… Stefan Eissing