Re: [dispatch] [hybi] WebTransport Side Meeting (Tuesday, 15:20)
Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com> Tue, 23 July 2019 15:40 UTC
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From: Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 11:37:04 -0400
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To: Eric Kinnear <ekinnear=40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: Andy Green <andy@warmcat.com>, Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, hybi@ietf.org, David Schinazi <dschinazi@google.com>, dispatch@ietf.org, HTTP Working Group <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] [hybi] WebTransport Side Meeting (Tuesday, 15:20)
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At a quick glance, https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kinnear-httpbis-http2-transport/?include_text=1 seems like a decent fit for the WebTransport API. It seems better than trying to fit the WebSocket API. But do we expect people to implement it on servers before they implement QUIC? I suppose even if it takes longer, it may have the advantage of working on more networks than QUIC and HTTP/3 potentially (for networks that still block UDP, for example). On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 5:29 PM Eric Kinnear <ekinnear= 40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > > > On Jul 22, 2019, at 4:59 PM, Andy Green <andy@warmcat.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On 7/22/19 1:36 PM, Victor Vasiliev wrote: > >> Hello everyone, > >> Today, at the dispatch working group meeting (18:10), I am going to > present WebTransport. WebTransport is a protocol framework that allows > multiplexed and datagram-oriented transport protocols to be used by the web > applications (think “WebSocket for UDP”). > > > > "Historically, web applications that needed bidirectional data stream > > between a client and a server could rely on WebSockets [RFC6455], a > > message-based protocol compatible with Web security model. However, > > since the abstraction it provides is a single ordered stream of > > messages, it suffers from head-of-line blocking (HOLB), meaning that > > all messages must be sent and received in order even if they are > > independent and some of them are no longer needed. This makes it a > > poor fit for latency sensitive applications which rely on partial > > reliability and stream independence for performance." > > > > The HOLB isn't really entirely the case... RFC6455 ws allows arbitrary > fragmentation of messages allowing interleaving with control frames. > > > > ws-over-h2 allows you to can the h2 stream when you want as well. > > > > " Each new stream would require a WebSocket handshake to agree on > > application protocol used, meaning that it would take at least one > > RTT for each new stream before the client can write to it." > > > > Yes it was knowingly done as a hack to try to encourage uptake from > browser vendors... it's not really integrated into the encapsulating > protocol. > > > >> * WebTransport overview: > >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-overview-00 > >> * QuicTransport: > >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-quic-00 > >> * Http3Transport: > >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-http3-00 > > > > There's no h2 transport implementation? > > > > Not everything that might want to use this will get h3 capability in a > reasonable timeframe. If there's more momentum behind it than RFC8441 > there's probably room for a generic long-lived bidirectional extension to > h2 either reusing DATA or a new frame type. > > Definitely agree! I know that we’ve been chatting a bit with Victor about > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kinnear-httpbis-http2-transport/ > which aims to provide this, and I think it would be worth making sure that > this works nicely with WebTransport. > -00 for that document covers effectively what you’d get with a new frame > type, and -01 extends 8441 to cover more than just WebSockets with the > extended CONNECT handshake. > I don’t have a particularly strong preference for the mechanism used, but > rather care more about the outcome — very much agree that this is a useful > component. > > Thanks, > Eric > > > > > It's a good idea to have it ride on other protocols. Not doing this > really hurt RFC6455 ws since deploying it usually needed extra, different > servers with the attendant difficulties interoperating with other protocols. > > > > I really suggest thinking through the effects of not having an RFC6455 > type subprotocol (unless I failed to spot it). It really makes an implicit > assumption about what the stream will carry that doesn't scale beyond one > server carrying one thing. That's not how things tend to pan out if the > protocol is useful. The url path could be hacked to imply the subprotocol > but if that's not standardized it's still a mess. And the subprotocol > binding may be orthogonal to the url layout complicating things needlessly. > > > > -Andy > > > >> * Web API Spec draft: https://wicg.github.io/web-transport/ > >> * Discussion on use cases: > >> https://discourse.wicg.io/t/webtransport-proposal/3508 > >> Cheers, > >> Victor. > >> _______________________________________________ > >> hybi mailing list > >> hybi@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hybi > > > > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch >
- WebTransport Side Meeting (Tuesday, 15:20) Victor Vasiliev
- Re: [hybi] WebTransport Side Meeting (Tuesday, 15… Andy Green
- Re: [hybi] WebTransport Side Meeting (Tuesday, 15… Eric Kinnear
- Re: [dispatch] [hybi] WebTransport Side Meeting (… Peter Thatcher
- Re: WebTransport Side Meeting (Tuesday, 15:20) David Schinazi
- Re: [hybi] WebTransport Side Meeting (Tuesday, 15… Victor Vasiliev
- Re: [hybi] WebTransport Side Meeting (Tuesday, 15… Andy Green
- Re: [hybi] WebTransport Side Meeting (Tuesday, 15… Mark Nottingham