IETF Logo Mail Archive

Re: New Version Notification for draft-nottingham-bikeshed-length-00.txt

Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> Thu, 19 March 2020 22:04 UTC

Return-Path: <ietf-http-wg-request+bounce-httpbisa-archive-bis2juki=lists.ie@listhub.w3.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C7843A0FFD for <ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 15:04:21 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.751
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.751 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, MAILING_LIST_MULTI=-1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=jbJnq8gt; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=YuDANuB7
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pOZRpkIbWXaR for <ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 15:04:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from lyra.w3.org (lyra.w3.org [128.30.52.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 381F13A107D for <httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@lists.ietf.org>; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 15:03:54 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from lists by lyra.w3.org with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <ietf-http-wg-request@listhub.w3.org>) id 1jF3C9-0000tM-Rq for ietf-http-wg-dist@listhub.w3.org; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 21:59:17 +0000
Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 21:59:17 +0000
Resent-Message-Id: <E1jF3C9-0000tM-Rq@lyra.w3.org>
Received: from titan.w3.org ([128.30.52.76]) by lyra.w3.org with esmtps (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <mnot@mnot.net>) id 1jF3C8-0000s5-Fh for ietf-http-wg@listhub.w3.org; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 21:59:16 +0000
Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.25]) by titan.w3.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <mnot@mnot.net>) id 1jF3C6-00012V-DF for ietf-http-wg@w3.org; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 21:59:16 +0000
Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5409C5C0279; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 17:59:01 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 19 Mar 2020 17:59:01 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm2; bh=Q qSGBi0437wdLp+ALvypcgNC306YCyngMF/N1HLrwEY=; b=jbJnq8gteHrHkbZAl 3YondjKAH7QlOSW2XP1peVqAZmYZMvsDFys41V0a/GxQkB0fSSYDDFpqcUdpYZX+ xQDuu8ySQ6JeznWUMRvsSKslzNK0199XsD2BTivejSWER0laYS59EECVBHGuQEqV A2NBaUcxgazlTFtyvKP3pfm3bDfGG/xuNgyzmQMyBpOzX28TRnANJZ9KX+YLSoT4 PGz862BzZJb31ejo9MktfTme2G2YaMUYzr5lbK6K8LJiuerfJbKu76YYkVFixsLT Gsn9+F7wahuC/2FPkwSK1dr/JQ/QVtqYxvcfUpSvMs+wxsAZDhYzJu2cBLhAuLEB 0mDdQ==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=QqSGBi0437wdLp+ALvypcgNC306YCyngMF/N1HLrw EY=; b=YuDANuB7OStuEtg8cYWyRkFTf4XS4AVewcRXOGQoh322X74SMhcL+ZBPW ayGgrkKrNXyOiRLlVOmAtHg+X8DWJmVKcAIwCqOC1lT/e6tkctQjAHVE/PfR6pZq oRcqQgfJME2m8UutqQcOCqWOHDrNCFytogumR8vmDMJ+ivQzC+uST3kNjRYQ6j4P phpUQZh3dm/84cDb3J1DsyaplkySi6iWEe/V+Crdvfv58Qb39O+gWbRDljTKI3eI RPPcNiUws5IjpTjFl6fsLUUgioVvEsldhaEQj7Q1ggN57MGQ1ExhGIXdmut79EHi y+nHIBgdrIZ7zEtgdU2QmzxKU3wig==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:I-tzXktAba-CQMNWQl8SdzTlG0oiu5wdN658LJxnO557Xks4GSetaA>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrudefledgudeglecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmd enucfjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhhtddvnecuhfhrohhmpeforghr khcupfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuffhomhgrih hnpehmnhhothdrnhgvthenucfkphepudduledrudejrdduheekrddvhedunecuvehluhhs thgvrhfuihiivgepudenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhnohhtsehmnhhoth drnhgvth
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:I-tzXpU4TsONvUiH05rIHdjNpTz-HRd8oJvrd9sytauYNyqWT7xuwg> <xmx:I-tzXlsO7zEJ9zN3MevAx2TZO_AKZF5wxnIGlHU70CCGOmxu4GYRMQ> <xmx:I-tzXq29pgDx4V2L6t1LliNblQfnfVAGLodjvoYp6gRkh_Z_2yvOHA> <xmx:JetzXshwaMB159aHQbM21L4vM5CzEbK0mpGcFkSwsfKoF6MISiYObA>
Received: from macbook-pro.mnot.net (unknown [119.17.158.251]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id F189E30618C1; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 17:58:57 -0400 (EDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\))
From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
In-Reply-To: <17396.1584635103@critter.freebsd.dk>
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 08:58:55 +1100
Cc: Willy Tarreau <w@1wt.eu>, Cory Benfield <cory@lukasa.co.uk>, HTTP Working Group <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <C5009015-BE9D-48EC-AF95-4FAEB1A7BE7F@mnot.net>
References: <158449485958.32126.16514800548442242620@ietfa.amsl.com> <3DD75975-2CA3-4071-974C-922121689310@mnot.net> <CAH_hAJGU=2OG-QRKSiauTFzHxLXdUBAc4ngLy93b-b3MbNLiKA@mail.gmail.com> <17273.1584633212@critter.freebsd.dk> <20200319161130.GA19209@1wt.eu> <17396.1584635103@critter.freebsd.dk>
To: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.freebsd.dk>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5)
Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.111.4.25; envelope-from=mnot@mnot.net; helo=out1-smtp.messagingengine.com
X-W3C-Hub-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.8
X-W3C-Hub-Spam-Report: BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, W3C_AA=-1, W3C_DB=-1, W3C_IRA=-1, W3C_IRR=-3, W3C_WL=-1
X-W3C-Scan-Sig: titan.w3.org 1jF3C6-00012V-DF d2cfde431f382e83d50b382d5fa911d7
X-Original-To: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-nottingham-bikeshed-length-00.txt
Archived-At: <https://www.w3.org/mid/C5009015-BE9D-48EC-AF95-4FAEB1A7BE7F@mnot.net>
Resent-From: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
X-Mailing-List: <ietf-http-wg@w3.org> archive/latest/37467
X-Loop: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
Resent-Sender: ietf-http-wg-request@w3.org
Precedence: list
List-Id: <ietf-http-wg.w3.org>
List-Help: <https://www.w3.org/Mail/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-http-wg-request@w3.org?subject=unsubscribe>

"Bikeshed" was put in the title with an eye towards the field name choice, but I can see now that *this* WG wants to do more.

I think in -01 I'll:
  - Make it an integer number of kbytes
  - Explicitly call it a best-effort estimate (and that might be a seed for a name?)
  - Explicitly prohibit it from being used for message framing (just in case some proxy decides to use it for forward Content-Length or something)

Anything else?


> On 20 Mar 2020, at 3:25 am, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
> 
> --------
> In message <20200319161130.GA19209@1wt.eu>, Willy Tarreau writes:
>> On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 03:53:32PM +0000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> 
>>> We could make it explictly fuzzy, by definting it as kilobytes rounded down ?
>> 
>> I think it's an excellent idea, which even goes in the direction of
>> reducing the on-wire bytes. And given todays connections speeds, if we
>> use it only for progress bars it could even represent megabytes rounded
>> to the nearest. Less than 0.5 will usually not take more than a few
>> seconds and not deserve showing an accurate progress bar.
> 
> I thought about that, but I know of applications where traffic is sorted
> in "small", "medium" and "huge", where "small" is significantly less than
> a megabyte, so I think the units should in the kilobytes rather than
> megabytes range.  Just to throw a number out there:  Smaller than 32k.
> 
> -- 
> Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> phk@FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/

v2.23.0 | Report a Bug | By Email