IETF Logo Mail Archive

Re: HTTP extensions, semantics and HTTP datagrams / MASQUE / WEBTRANS

Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> Wed, 24 June 2020 23:56 UTC

Return-Path: <ietf-http-wg-request+bounce-httpbisa-archive-bis2juki=lists.ie@listhub.w3.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 429D53A11E7 for <ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 24 Jun 2020 16:56:37 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.748
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.748 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, MAILING_LIST_MULTI=-1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=N4J0ZBT6; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=CeOpeKmc
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hkRxFuidMcuJ for <ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 24 Jun 2020 16:56:35 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from lyra.w3.org (lyra.w3.org [128.30.52.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8BA7A3A11E8 for <httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@lists.ietf.org>; Wed, 24 Jun 2020 16:56:35 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from lists by lyra.w3.org with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <ietf-http-wg-request@listhub.w3.org>) id 1joFFf-0006Q2-JT for ietf-http-wg-dist@listhub.w3.org; Wed, 24 Jun 2020 23:56:23 +0000
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 23:56:23 +0000
Resent-Message-Id: <E1joFFf-0006Q2-JT@lyra.w3.org>
Received: from mimas.w3.org ([128.30.52.79]) by lyra.w3.org with esmtps (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <mnot@mnot.net>) id 1joFFd-0006Ow-MT for ietf-http-wg@listhub.w3.org; Wed, 24 Jun 2020 23:56:21 +0000
Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.28]) by mimas.w3.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <mnot@mnot.net>) id 1joFFc-0003bA-BB for ietf-http-wg@w3.org; Wed, 24 Jun 2020 23:56:21 +0000
Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id B908A5C00D0; Wed, 24 Jun 2020 19:56:09 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 24 Jun 2020 19:56:09 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm3; bh=M H82Ci4ks+GoY95bTWp2ywCFxESL1jxHj2LAwhojS3Q=; b=N4J0ZBT6qO1AuHsSM US62fxvq8NGgKScNB2zv5tKU+a461TAAMEQkEUXd7BDiDD+7aMoCL+JPWFIkamO1 08rk/9wOshN1IhgXuagmu1Q3B4n10PNYQ5A9eLUd8DjTkuYorvFmd0wQRIR0B8u3 dQhEapJGuLszd6E76vJzYcA02poKDuCyJCKg6oGqdlUxGULUvfVq80DUfF3g9ZjL 5gMIRmLfXYjRHMLgHNrECcIFEhWLq8sfiz1kuoHiu0vm38aSIAcI7aYWyeV116S9 pCqwycOXCpg3Jp8FD/BljRZP4twvM0mljQjY/QhNKCdOvpRIG71NaauljukJPpp0 xQAhQ==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=MH82Ci4ks+GoY95bTWp2ywCFxESL1jxHj2LAwhojS 3Q=; b=CeOpeKmcmSgzbzaxD8SiTndaLY6Yamr7d8KJV9UxN6eXuDq68lJRO6ShN dIag/Yec0m4rcAPo3bRQLgrDdll0KoUYAR7rUUJybGo2Xko5xKeLAJKX3DNxDS4m f5MjQKmQWDxq41El29YBlBIexV1rszg5ZDMcfnuTReolSdWwPXtiRZURk7CUZs7m VbbcJWXKZ/Vr/ygHoq1acN9NqPXH8IJZTmX46aXmajYY8FticM0Buyb0fDtwup8b jAPLhqMqGf6KJD9GHdgRXxzzfAuJFVKPDsprvLFNAnfI3pLNg0bTXy6GZ6PyplWz z3PQcZZkUOtmX+HLQ6KvG8tkTlPyA==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:GOjzXjTWrcKyAyzC-pUSpX9xax1q-2J2hGF5HGL01RslyTy-TgQcag>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduhedrudekkedgvdejucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqh hmtdhhtddvnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcupfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehm nhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepjedvveeuveeuhedthfdtudevieehfe fffffhffehudeludefteevvdegtefgjefgnecuffhomhgrihhnpehhthhtphhhohhpshdr ihhmpdhmnhhothdrnhgvthenucfkphepudduledrudejrdduheekrddvhedunecuvehluh hsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhnohhtsehmnhho thdrnhgvth
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:GOjzXkwIXepPdHgWgideoBQcdpcJY5BN-ipruj5GE-2JZ65315sV-w> <xmx:GOjzXo0ogeQm_w24hPW_qHtT41CrmHDadDLSkZuFpqibbyovx3xq0g> <xmx:GOjzXjBeTEK--hxlz7mfunHepanI-OyoiScwRkjNbLcqIi1mMQDRqw> <xmx:GejzXvscePyVxYRx0v4uWHQeWWrdwAoNMqeLic_uEQwlMHfiXdt4KQ>
Received: from macbook-air.mnot.net (119-17-158-251.77119e.mel.static.aussiebb.net [119.17.158.251]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id C509D328005E; Wed, 24 Jun 2020 19:56:07 -0400 (EDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\))
From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
In-Reply-To: <CAPDSy+54b3LbHE-+Kodh_xWNNvQtMi=rcw4iwBz8yskT=6CtsQ@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 09:56:05 +1000
Cc: Ben Schwartz <bemasc@google.com>, "ietf-http-wg@w3.org Group" <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <EC1D43AA-472A-499B-B932-F4820644CCB4@mnot.net>
References: <54E08031-1892-4CC0-A6CF-0CAA4BFF679B@mnot.net> <02858E1D-C010-4404-ADF3-5EB97D4B32B3@mnot.net> <CAHbrMsAjuNPcytNHicCUs4-rR2TESNFwGNOX9Pu+xHbEVx0L5A@mail.gmail.com> <CAPDSy+54b3LbHE-+Kodh_xWNNvQtMi=rcw4iwBz8yskT=6CtsQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2)
Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.111.4.28; envelope-from=mnot@mnot.net; helo=out4-smtp.messagingengine.com
X-W3C-Hub-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.8
X-W3C-Hub-Spam-Report: BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, W3C_AA=-1, W3C_DB=-1, W3C_IRA=-1, W3C_IRR=-3, W3C_WL=-1
X-W3C-Scan-Sig: mimas.w3.org 1joFFc-0003bA-BB 8f09a28e9ea7108c71cf3f4b05e0c32e
X-Original-To: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
Subject: Re: HTTP extensions, semantics and HTTP datagrams / MASQUE / WEBTRANS
Archived-At: <https://www.w3.org/mid/EC1D43AA-472A-499B-B932-F4820644CCB4@mnot.net>
Resent-From: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
X-Mailing-List: <ietf-http-wg@w3.org> archive/latest/37822
X-Loop: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
Resent-Sender: ietf-http-wg-request@w3.org
Precedence: list
List-Id: <ietf-http-wg.w3.org>
List-Help: <https://www.w3.org/Mail/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-http-wg-request@w3.org?subject=unsubscribe>

> On 25 Jun 2020, at 7:33 am, David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> My main concern is that if we come up with a new HTTP mechanism that would like to use datagrams but couldn't be solved by extending CONNECT-UDP, then we'd be in a bind because it might be impossible to use both CONNECT-UDP and this new mechanism over the same connection.

Could you not embed it in CONNECT-UDP in such a way that it could be reused by other extensions?

> Another solution could be to keep the drafts separate, and have draft-schinazi-quic-h3-datagram mention that any application that uses it MUST define associated HTTP semantics and how datagrams work across multiple HTTP hops.

I'm not sure that MUST would have much force, but perhaps we could just position the document as 'this is a generic layer for attaching HTTP semantics to unreliable DATAGRAM delivery in HTTP/3' or similar.

--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/

v2.23.0 | Report a Bug | By Email