Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization)
Yoav Weiss <yoav@yoav.ws> Mon, 15 June 2020 11:47 UTC
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In-Reply-To: <ECF2C350-5D53-4E3B-9AAC-2F7E3FD4B528@greenbytes.de>
From: Yoav Weiss <yoav@yoav.ws>
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 13:43:47 +0200
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To: Stefan Eissing <stefan.eissing@greenbytes.de>
Cc: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>, Patrick Meenan <patmeenan@gmail.com>, Lucas Pardue <lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.com>, HTTP Working Group <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>, Bence Béky <bnc@chromium.org>
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Subject: Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization)
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On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 1:18 PM Stefan Eissing <stefan.eissing@greenbytes.de> wrote: > > Stefan Eissing > > <green/>bytes GmbH > Hafenweg 16 > 48155 Münster > www.greenbytes.de > > > Am 15.06.2020 um 12:14 schrieb Yoav Weiss <yoav@yoav.ws>: > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 11:03 AM Stefan Eissing < > stefan.eissing@greenbytes.de> wrote: > > > > > Am 15.06.2020 um 10:28 schrieb Yoav Weiss <yoav@yoav.ws>: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 9:55 AM Stefan Eissing < > stefan.eissing@greenbytes.de> wrote: > > > > Am 11.06.2020 um 10:41 schrieb Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>: > > > > > > > > That depends on how much clients would rely on reprioritization. > Unlike H2 priorities, Extensible Priority does not have inter-stream > dependencies. Therefore, losing *some* prioritization signals is less of an > issue compared to H2 priorities. > > > > > > > > Assuming that reprioritization is used mostly for refining the > initial priorities of a fraction of all the requests, I think there'd be > benefit in defining reprioritization as an optional feature. Though I can > see some might argue for not having reprioritization even as an optional > feature unless there is proof that it would be useful. > > > > > > > > > > We should decide if reprioritization is good or bad, based on as > much data as we can pull, and make sure it's implemented only if we see > benefits for it in some cases, and then make sure it's only used in those > cases. > > > > > > When thinking about priority implementations, I recommend thinking > about a H3 reverse proxy in front of a legacy H1 server. Assume limited > memory, disk space and backend connections. > > > > > > (Re-)prioritization in H2 works well for flow control, among the > streams that have response data to send. Priorities can play a part in > server scheduling, but > > > it's more tricky. By "scheduling" I mean that the server has to pick > one among the opened streams for which it wants to compute a response for. > This is often impossible to re-prioritize afterwards (e.g. suicidal for a > server implementation). > > > > > > Can you expand on why it is "suicidal"? > > > > It is tricky to obey re-prioritizations to the letter, managing > memory+backend connections and protecting the infrastructure against DoS > attacks. The reality is that there are limited resources and a server is > expected to protect those. It's a (pun intended) top priority. > > > > Another priority topping the streams is the concept of fairness between > connections. In Apache httpd, the resources to process h2 streams are > foremost shared evenly between connections. > > > > That makes sense. Would re-prioritization of specific streams somehow > require to change that? > > > > The share a connection gets is then allocated to streams based on > current h2 priority settings. Any change after that will "only" affect the > downstream DATA allocation. > > > > I *think* this makes sense as well, assuming that by "downstream" you > mean "future". Is that what you meant? Or am I missing something? > > > > Also, the number of "active" streams on a connection is dynamic. It will > start relatively small and grow if the connection is well behaving, shrink > if it is not. That one of the reasons that Apache was only partially > vulnerable to a single issue on the Netflix h2 cve list last year (the > other being nghttp2). > > > > tl;dr > > > > By "suicidal" I mean a server failing the task of process thousands of > connections in a consistent and fair manner. > > > > Apologies if I'm being daft, but I still don't understand how (internal > to a connection) stream reprioritization impacts cross-connection fairness. > > *fails to imagine Yoav as being daft* > :) Thanks for outlining the server-side processing! > A server with active connections and workers. For simplicity, assume that > each ongoing request allocates a worker. > - all workers are busy > - re-prio arrives and makes a stream A, being processed, depend on a > stream B which has not been assigned a worker yet. > OK, I now understand that this can be concerning. IIUC, this part is solved by with Extensible Priorities (because there's no dependency tree). Lucas, Kazuho - can you confirm? > - ideally, the server would freeze the processing of A and assign the > resources to B. > - however re-allocating the resources is often not possible (Imagine a > CGI process running or a backend HTTP/1.1 or uWSGI connection.) > - the server can only suspend the worker or continue processing, ignoring > the dependency. > - a suspended worker is very undesirable and a possible victim of a > slow-loris attack > - To make this suspending less sever, the server would need to make > processing of stream B very important. To unblock it quickly again. This is > then where unfairness comes in. > > The safe option therefore is to continue processing stream A and ignore > the dependency on B. Thus, priorities are only relevant: > 1. when the next stream to process on a connection is selected > 2. when size/number of DATA frames to send is allocated on a connection > between all streams that want to send > > (Reality is often not quite as bad as I described: when static file/cache > resources are served for example, a worker often just does the lookup, > producing a file handle very quickly. A connection easily juggles a number > of file handles to stream out according to priorities and stalling one file > on another comes at basically no risk and cost.) > > Now, this is for H2 priorities. I don't know enough about QUIC priorities > to have an opinion on the proposals. Just wanted to point out that servers > see the world a little different than clients. ;) > I checked and it seems like Chromium does indeed change the parent dependency as part of reprioritization. If the scenario you outlined is a problem in practice, we should discuss ways to avoid doing that with H2 priorities. > > Cheers, Stefan > > > > > > > > > > > If we would do H2 a second time, my idea would be to signal priorities > in the HTTP request in a connection header and use this in the H2 frame > layer to allocate DATA space on the downlink. Leave out changing priorities > on a request already started. Let the client use its window sizes if it > feels the need. > > > > > > Cheers, Stefan (lurking) > > > >
- Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization Lucas Pardue
- Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization Yoav Weiss
- Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization Lucas Pardue
- Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization Patrick Meenan
- Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization Lucas Pardue
- Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization Yoav Weiss
- Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization Eric Kinnear
- Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization Kazuho Oku
- Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization Martin Thomson
- Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization Bence Béky
- Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: Exte… Lucas Pardue
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Dmitri Tikhonov
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Patrick Meenan
- Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization Patrick Meenan
- Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization Lucas Pardue
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Lucas Pardue
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Dmitri Tikhonov
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Roy T. Fielding
- Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization Kinuko Yasuda
- Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization Kinuko Yasuda
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Kazuho Oku
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Yoav Weiss
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Martin Thomson
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Kazuho Oku
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Stefan Eissing
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Yoav Weiss
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Stefan Eissing
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Yoav Weiss
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Stefan Eissing
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Yoav Weiss
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Patrick Meenan
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Yoav Weiss
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Patrick Meenan
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Kazuho Oku
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Yoav Weiss
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Barry Pollard
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Barry Pollard
- Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization Kazuho Oku
- Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization Yoav Weiss
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Lucas Pardue
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Tom Bergan
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Lucas Pardue
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Tom Bergan
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Lucas Pardue
- Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization Patrick Meenan
- Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization Patrick Meenan
- Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization Lucas Pardue
- Reprioritization - implementation intent Mark Nottingham
- Re: Reprioritization - implementation intent Eric Kinnear
- Nice to have guidance (was: Re: Reprioritization … Lucas Pardue
- Re: Nice to have guidance (was: Re: Reprioritizat… Eric Kinnear
- Re: Reprioritization - implementation intent Yoav Weiss
- Re: Reprioritization - implementation intent Yoav Weiss
- Re: Reprioritization - implementation intent Yoav Weiss