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Received-SPF: pass (pan.w3.org: domain of protonmail.com designates 185.70.40.137 as permitted sender) client-ip=185.70.40.137; envelope-from=cxres@protonmail.com; helo=mail-40137.protonmail.ch; Received: from mail-40137.protonmail.ch ([185.70.40.137]) by pan.w3.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.96) (envelope-from ) id 1sYJjZ-00EBOA-1u for ietf-http-wg@w3.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2024 06:19:50 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail3; t=1722233984; x=1722493184; bh=f+Jx0KMTe+Pw3A2purTBAGASapa/fqRmxY7bDXufhQo=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=IaEuvdChHIAH6gETy/8Ynsyo5Lmfk9F5tlsezL+rACNO1MOiOHR73LE4iEW1SAwFY B3tWA2bZSPvWNsC0Yfvz61PiggWTsxMjIL0zdgpZPfflH4g1u6s4lKIDecvA/z+zJF tBZZbJBl86Xb8HsrkIDfYpmB03WC1V7zw+LnE083j6qx9wnMqEaCjhFHXbsdd9bf8i +KP5vEm2BT8xIYwAHm7sw0uNbjXSNiUkTnkXdkIErIEqMj+foZPxsg0yFY8Z5NkUE7 tg/T9I8qSY5Q9nWrTyQ3xad4Mrh62/vtMG8VxqiDIlSJOz7F9DUZ1iNJlqojDVrBfS GPT+3VqCYTcBg== Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 06:19:41 +0000 To: "ietf-http-wg@w3.org" From: Rahul Gupta Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Feedback-ID: 919445:user:proton X-Pm-Message-ID: 12f62a82a699feb94337ce43501b6f483f5d91e0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="------d65a44496f973b61ba5aff073f69acd0e41e0b146f831ad8ff0dae41cf51e108"; charset=utf-8 X-W3C-Hub-DKIM-Status: validation passed: (address=cxres@protonmail.com domain=protonmail.com), signature is good X-W3C-Hub-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.1 X-W3C-Hub-Spam-Report: BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, DMARC_PASS=-0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, W3C_AA=-1, W3C_DB=-1, W3C_IRA=-1, W3C_WL=-1 X-W3C-Scan-Sig: pan.w3.org 1sYJjZ-00EBOA-1u a7bb48c228d1c3875353a992060c87e7 X-Original-To: ietf-http-wg@w3.org Subject: Re: Method Mania Archived-At: Resent-From: ietf-http-wg@w3.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52163 X-Loop: ietf-http-wg@w3.org Resent-Sender: ietf-http-wg-request@w3.org Precedence: list List-Id: List-Help: List-Post: List-Unsubscribe: This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------d65a44496f973b61ba5aff073f69acd0e41e0b146f831ad8ff0dae41cf51e108 Content-Type: multipart/mixed;boundary=---------------------babdd3dbf99ca2ac22475503e8578ff9 -----------------------babdd3dbf99ca2ac22475503e8578ff9 Content-Type: multipart/alternative;boundary=---------------------1ce5e7a0e04edf5a8a5860717c1b50c0 -----------------------1ce5e7a0e04edf5a8a5860717c1b50c0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 As the author of the other Notifications proposal https://www.ietf.org/arc= hive/id/draft-gupta-httpbis-per-resource-events-01.html=C2=A0at HTTPWG, my= goal has been to create a notification protocol that is as backwards comp= atible as possible with existing HTTP semantics, and define a negotiation = mechanism (`Accept-Events` and `Events` header field), so that we can then= invent in the future, more advanced protocols, that for example, leverage= HTTP/2/3 frames. This gives us more freedom to take "risks" with the more= advance notification protocols, with the security to fallback on a safer = mechanism when things break. BR/Rahul On Sunday, July 28th, 2024 at 7:04 PM, Patrick Meenan wrote: > Sorry, I didn't mean to imply not to go forward or to necessarily find a= way to thread the needle but to explicitly plan for there to be middle-bo= xes that break and to be deliberate about how to handle that case, even fo= r HTTPS. > Failing loudly, in obvious and testable ways is WAY better than failing = silently or in random ways. It makes it much easier for IT teams and softw= are vendors to identify the root cause and test fixes. It can also be good= to force failures broadly rather than pick just a subset of the populatio= n for it to work on (like requiring IPv6 features). There will be some mid= dleboxes with issues but there will be a lot more that don't have issues a= nd it would artificially limit the reach of the feature if you disable it = for all middlebox cases. > = > I expect that new frame types for HTTP/2 and HTTP/3 would be more compat= ible than new methods just because devices are already parsing the existin= g headers and streams for content and would be more likely to error out wh= en seeing a method they don't understand (but, odds are, new frames will h= ave some number of devices that fail as well). > = > We have seen it more often than I care to admit, with the rollouts for H= TTP/2, brotli, post-quantum TLS and now with compression dictionaries (whi= ch, you'd think the brotli rollout would have prepared devices for handlin= g content-encoding negotiation in a compatible way, but nope). > = > The devices tend to fail the connections in painful ways, like closing t= he whole connection when it sees payload content it doesn't like (wiping o= ut a bunch of multiplexed requests on a HTTP/2 connection for example). > = > Here is the site we're currently sending IT admins to when they get repo= rts of TLS failures with the post-quantum rollout (mostly because of broke= n middleboxes): https://tldr.fail/ > = > I'd encourage the team to continue without trying to get too fancy, just= expect there will be some ecosystem cleanup needed when it is rolled out = and to plan for it. > = > On Sun, Jul 28, 2024 at 1:33=E2=80=AFAM Josh Cohen wr= ote: > = > > Same here.. Patrick also said: > > = > > > "The better question is under what circumstances do we want to allow= those devices to "break" and force them to fix the implementations?" > > = > > = > > Maybe a reasonable interpretation of Patrick's statement is that it's = time to be bold. HTTP/1.1 RFC2616 was published in 1999. It's the 25 year = anniversary. =F0=9F=A5=B3 In the intervening years, the IETF has done a gr= eat job evolving the transport. That's created the foundation for things w= e couldn't do back then. I don't think it was a coincidence that Lisa Duss= eault was in the room. The universe is speaking to us. Maybe it's time for= a WebDAV re-spin.. The web could also have standardized pub/sub. > > = > > If we add new functionality that users and devs want, and makes admin = life easier, that could be helpful in driving better implementations, and = uptake of HTTP/2/3 and masque proxying. > > = > > = > > = > > = > > = > > = > > = > > On Sat, Jul 27, 2024 at 10:07=E2=80=AFPM Julian Reschke wrote: > > = > > > On 27.07.2024 16:44, Patrick Meenan wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Jul 27, 2024 at 4:23=E2=80=AFAM Julian Reschke > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > On 26.07.2024 00:27, Josh Cohen wrote: > > > > > On the httpwg agenda at IETF 120 were a proposal for a new QUERY > > > > method > > > > > and Braid, which has subscription functionality that overloads > > > > the GET > > > > > method. > > > > > > > > > > What I am curious about is if, at this point in the evolution of= the > > > > > web, it is now safe to add new methods for new functionality. > > > > I've been > > > > > reading up on HTTP/2/3 and it seems that nowadays, connections a= re > > > > > end-to-end secure and are essentially tunneled through middle bo= xes, > > > > > including HTTP/1.1 proxies. I'm still just wrapping my head arou= nd > > > > > MASQUE, but it looks like it can handle arbitrary methods. Simil= arly > > > > > origin servers have evolved to support arbitrary methods. > > > > > > > > It always has been "safe", when https was used. > > > > > > > > > > > > https is not "safe" in practical terms because of middleboxes that > > > > intercept the connections. It is very common in enterprise deploym= ents > > > > where they install local trust anchors on the client devices and u= se > > > > mitm software to inspect the traffic. > > > > ... > > > = > > > I meant "safe" wrt deploying new HTTP methods. > > > = > > > When was the last time you encountered a problem? > > > = > > > Best regards, Julian > > > = > > > = > > > = > > = > > = > > = > > -- > > = > > --- > > Josh Cohen -----------------------1ce5e7a0e04edf5a8a5860717c1b50c0 Content-Type: multipart/related;boundary=---------------------75ed4599134b5720cc36ccd0e19d6e69 -----------------------75ed4599134b5720cc36ccd0e19d6e69 Content-Type: text/html;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGRpdiBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IEFyaWFsLCBzYW5zLXNlcmlmOyBmb250LXNpemU6IDE0 cHg7Ij5BcyB0aGUgYXV0aG9yIG9mIHRoZSBvdGhlciBOb3RpZmljYXRpb25zIHByb3Bvc2FsIDxz cGFuPjxhIHRhcmdldD0iX2JsYW5rIiByZWw9Im5vcmVmZXJyZXIgbm9mb2xsb3cgbm9vcGVuZXIi 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