IETF Logo Mail Archive

RE: Op-sec simplification

Mike Bishop <Michael.Bishop@microsoft.com> Tue, 01 November 2016 17:38 UTC

Return-Path: <ietf-http-wg-request+bounce-httpbisa-archive-bis2juki=lists.ie@listhub.w3.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7B8E12947C for <ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 1 Nov 2016 10:38:29 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -8.498
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=microsoft.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GWaQnFH9ZbLF for <ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 1 Nov 2016 10:38:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from frink.w3.org (frink.w3.org [128.30.52.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B288129480 for <httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@lists.ietf.org>; Tue, 1 Nov 2016 10:38:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from lists by frink.w3.org with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from <ietf-http-wg-request@listhub.w3.org>) id 1c1cws-0001vy-8M for ietf-http-wg-dist@listhub.w3.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2016 17:34:10 +0000
Resent-Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2016 17:34:10 +0000
Resent-Message-Id: <E1c1cws-0001vy-8M@frink.w3.org>
Received: from mimas.w3.org ([128.30.52.79]) by frink.w3.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from <Michael.Bishop@microsoft.com>) id 1c1cwl-0001up-Ts for ietf-http-wg@listhub.w3.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2016 17:34:03 +0000
Received: from mail-sn1nam01on0121.outbound.protection.outlook.com ([104.47.32.121] helo=NAM01-SN1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) by mimas.w3.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <Michael.Bishop@microsoft.com>) id 1c1cwf-00029N-8V for ietf-http-wg@w3.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2016 17:33:58 +0000
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=lRNmThP4dbJGijX+bDoUGJ8YalpS6oNTszO92gJZsvM=; b=Vx8GqdqzpC6zj89jU82UTDJ0sQK0uAn9KL8DSReAHk/Ic6PZzg7VDomx2An1L/zfLxxnH9t2WgzZFm1JKFUKcv3VuUT2GAHdDv0tkQeWtoaWjxPwsgUZMpsrSxGRTEgeTzgwhP10G+9uVdnaeBP994T/AlQ3ubcc2RbrZCX4XEg=
Received: from BN6PR03MB2708.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.173.144.15) by BN6PR03MB2708.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.173.144.15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.693.12; Tue, 1 Nov 2016 17:33:25 +0000
Received: from BN6PR03MB2708.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.173.144.15]) by BN6PR03MB2708.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.173.144.15]) with mapi id 15.01.0693.009; Tue, 1 Nov 2016 17:33:25 +0000
From: Mike Bishop <Michael.Bishop@microsoft.com>
To: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>, Kari Hurtta <hurtta-ietf@elmme-mailer.org>
CC: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, HTTP working group mailing list <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
Thread-Topic: Op-sec simplification
Thread-Index: AQHSMzgxU/1c8rIat0qK8dwR+i9dY6DDKYYAgAAJTYCAAACEAIAAZtYAgAAINICAAMGL4A==
Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2016 17:33:25 +0000
Message-ID: <BN6PR03MB27087E46B10F0CD57CB7486187A10@BN6PR03MB2708.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <20161031053239.E9C6D12F5D@welho-filter3.welho.com> <842E817E-77E4-45E0-B5E3-D45F8D7AFA15@mnot.net> <CABkgnnVm2roXz5BiQeh5m2a_zcsfC3rFZ2pnoQ_m9k6b3K=58w@mail.gmail.com> <4CE68DCC-BE25-42DE-9247-4195103797EF@mnot.net> <201611010525.uA15P8V9009381@shell.siilo.fmi.fi> <CABkgnnWDqrn6Oqf62mPBqkp+0t9TvX1rO_Ge27LJW8EKmVjukA@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CABkgnnWDqrn6Oqf62mPBqkp+0t9TvX1rO_Ge27LJW8EKmVjukA@mail.gmail.com>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=Michael.Bishop@microsoft.com;
x-originating-ip: [2001:4898:80e8:8::390]
x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 7ce9de5e-95ad-4432-929a-08d4027d2f50
x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BN6PR03MB2708; 7:6fsU31HDrCwp58W1R/Qu/VsZ+StGdpG+DyZyjFmUAzl1xBB2SNPn4oQsi0M4S84AgS6E2OUGpgMbCRswBMyFAa5NpfA3Et8ZB/5G7R3dbTa162ZWZ+GsZFn/3DkEwY6vJrm8HRrAswkRu6Fw+UwZX2yhZmd3H2QbY/o5IM2BbWm6qsYdfMyWCcQP53kRWRsO7uL4invQAqhhVq5B531e3b6YsdTTY6PbQtdlpqFysYZozv2s8pTTS+Kw8g9KDrGHDI1SUwx9UZ48GR+vZ6RpwpNtyAhWlYjjnmqdeixFi1S2xG0D3LHhqNy5HeOYtvk4abpyaSOEWCW24jyGgwuC3no6SQhn7rl3sHEGz9nmDaUxty49DsJR+W2ts0Ftd4GQ
x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:BN6PR03MB2708;
x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: <BN6PR03MB27081BB6D4EFB2C1789B8A1B87A10@BN6PR03MB2708.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(158342451672863)(166708455590820)(79290750141951);
x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(61425038)(6040176)(6045074)(601004)(2401047)(8121501046)(5005006)(10201501046)(3002001)(6055026)(61426038)(61427038)(6046074)(6072074); SRVR:BN6PR03MB2708; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:BN6PR03MB2708;
x-forefront-prvs: 01136D2D90
x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(7916002)(24454002)(377454003)(189002)(13464003)(199003)(3280700002)(33656002)(11100500001)(3480700004)(3660700001)(2900100001)(15395725005)(8936002)(106116001)(102836003)(6116002)(92566002)(105586002)(106356001)(99286002)(586003)(8990500004)(10290500002)(86612001)(86362001)(10400500002)(5005710100001)(77096005)(15975445007)(10090500001)(189998001)(5002640100001)(97736004)(5001770100001)(19580405001)(2950100002)(19580395003)(7696004)(50986999)(9686002)(68736007)(54356999)(76176999)(101416001)(93886004)(122556002)(5660300001)(76576001)(81166006)(74316002)(81156014)(8676002)(87936001)(2906002)(4326007)(7846002)(7736002)(305945005)(376185003); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BN6PR03MB2708; H:BN6PR03MB2708.namprd03.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en;
received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: microsoft.com does not designate permitted sender hosts)
spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99
spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 01 Nov 2016 17:33:25.2648 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN6PR03MB2708
Received-SPF: pass client-ip=104.47.32.121; envelope-from=Michael.Bishop@microsoft.com; helo=NAM01-SN1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com
X-W3C-Hub-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.0
X-W3C-Hub-Spam-Report: AWL=-2.451, BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, W3C_NW=0.5
X-W3C-Scan-Sig: mimas.w3.org 1c1cwf-00029N-8V 9827507047f23d29d19e6d3663b2cba2
X-Original-To: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
Subject: RE: Op-sec simplification
Archived-At: <http://www.w3.org/mid/BN6PR03MB27087E46B10F0CD57CB7486187A10@BN6PR03MB2708.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Resent-From: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
X-Mailing-List: <ietf-http-wg@w3.org> archive/latest/32791
X-Loop: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
Resent-Sender: ietf-http-wg-request@w3.org
Precedence: list
List-Id: <ietf-http-wg.w3.org>
List-Help: <http://www.w3.org/Mail/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-http-wg-request@w3.org?subject=unsubscribe>

I think the case for TBD2 is that the client sent an "ambiguous" request -- that is, connecting over port 443 and not specifying http:// or https://, but just sending e.g. GET /resource.

The problem is, if that server is also an alternate for https://www.example.com, that's not an ambiguous request -- it's a clear request for an https:// resource.  The server can't detect that unless the https:// origin isn't supported there, in which case you're likely to get an existing error (probably 400 for our current code, but a good argument could be made for 421 again).  If the https:// origin is supported there, the client will get a response and never know it asked for (and got) the wrong thing.  The server simply can't fix a broken client, and TBD2 doesn't provide a useful mechanism because the server can't distinguish.

That makes it all the more important that clients know whether the server can support scheme-mixing *and then do it.*  Unless we want to require servers to have distinct scheme-always-required ports, I don't think this is a problem solvable server-side.

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Thomson [mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2016 10:54 PM
To: Kari Hurtta <hurtta-ietf@elmme-mailer.org>
Cc: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>; HTTP working group mailing list <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Op-sec simplification

On 1 November 2016 at 16:25, Kari Hurtta <hurtta-ietf@elmme-mailer.org> wrote:
> That may be good idea. (This spec requires scheme and http/1.1 spec 
> does not allow scheme to be used. )

I have tried to capture this information in a PR:
  https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/257

> |   | TBD1  | Scheme Not Allowed            | Section 2.2 |

We can probably avoid doing that on the basis that we have 421.

> |   | TBD2  | Scheme Required               | Section 2.1 |

The case for this seems weak.  You have to have a resource that is only available on the cleartext version of the site, and you have to use opp-sec, and the client has to be very silly.  I would prefer to use 404 here.  That is, assume that the client asked for a secure resource (https://example.com/http-only) which doesn't exist; rather than asking for the unsecured resource (http://example.com/http-only) which might.

v2.23.0 | Report a Bug | By Email