Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP
"DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)" <luismi.diaz@alcatel-lucent.com> Fri, 12 November 2010 08:54 UTC
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From: "DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)" <luismi.diaz@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 09:54:20 +0100
Thread-Topic: [dispatch] [conex] [httpstreaming] Q-HTTP
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Cc: "dispatch@ietf.org" <dispatch@ietf.org>, Ingemar, httpstreaming <httpstreaming@ietf.org>, "conex@ietf.org" <conex@ietf.org>, Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>, "GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)" <jose_javier.garcia_aranda@alcatel-lucent.com>
Subject: Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP
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Few comments in-line.... Saludos, Luismi -----Mensaje original----- De: dispatch-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org] En nombre de Mikael Abrahamsson Enviado el: jueves, 11 de noviembre de 2010 20:02 Para: DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL) CC: dispatch@ietf.org; httpstreaming; conex@ietf.org; Ingemar Johansson S; Kathy McEwen; GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER) Asunto: Re: [dispatch] [conex] [httpstreaming] Q-HTTP On Thu, 11 Nov 2010, DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL) wrote: > Just a different approach. Think in a traffic jam. I know it would > be nice to live in a wonderful world with no jams, but they happen. > Know compare you, going back home from work, and an ambulance with > someone dying inside. Everybody gets away to let ambulance drive > first. And that's OK. When there is a traffic jam due to an accident it's ok. Where there is LA style traffic jams 12 hours of the day, that's not ok. [[Luismi]]: I dont look why it is happening. It is just happening. And we need to do something about it in both cases (accident and 12-hour daily jam). > Now think on Internet. You are playing a Real-Time game and your > neighbours are just downloading files. They can afford some amount of > traffic loss (+delay/jitter) since TCP retransmisions will do the > trick (just will take a little longer to get the job done) while you > cannot afford losing (+delaying/jitterin) your traffic because if it > happens, your opponent will blow you away from the arena. That's the > point, all traffic flows are NOT the same and need different SLAs. It would help the customer to get different treatment of his/her flows on the access. It would help the ISP and not the customer to do the same in the distribution/core. Who do we want to help? Is it the end user or is it the ISP? In the discussions in CONEX I mostly see people wanting to help the ISP, not the end user. [[Luismi]]: There is one only real thing we can trust in: ISP is there because of PROFIT. If there is no profit there will be no investment at all and everything will just stale, that is precisely the reason while new real-time services are not flying on Internet as it should. We are helping ISPs to do MORE with the same money, and that will benefit users. With Q-HTTP we are also providing the tools to users to "audit" what they are paying for. Users will pay extra money for superb services (we are doing that right now when you pay a World of Warcraft or OnLive subscription) and part of that money will end-up on the ISP. Sharing profit between all the players is definetively a good thing IMHO. > - Enables network operators to generate more revenue for > "over-requirements". I dont think real-time was in mind whe Internet > was created and we need to provide ISPs with new tools like this. "over-requirement" as in "I want to actually get what you promised to deliver to me"? [[Luismi]]: The problem is that ISPs promises are just vague. Up to X Mbps, with no delay/jitter guarantees is just fine for a lot of applications. It is just not enough for real-time. Besides, a few seconds congestion (for instance, a fiber goes down and all traffic re-routes by another path that becomes 1.5 to 1 congested) will produce a slow down in "standard" service and a complete melt-down in real-time. THAT's what we want to protect. Real-Time application will obtain higher priority during congestion (thus slowing down even more the standard services) and EVERYTHING will be saved. Standard services will survive with a period of "half-speed" and Real-Time will survive unaffected. I don't buy it. [[Luismi]]: Then there are a lot of services that never will fly out on Internet. Take a look on OnLive service. They provide virtualized gaming (play XBOX games on your TV without the console, just with a small set-top-box that receives video and sends keys pressed on the pad) by just bypassing the network and installing PoPs just half mile away from your home. That is not economically optimized as you can imagine thus they are translating that into a very expensive service. Just because network does not provide what they need. With QoS, they can offer a centralized service, with really cheaper deployment, lower the service fee to users (win), making more profit (win) and paying a % of that to ISP (win). If we like win-win, you must love this win-win-win (and even better, ISP will re-invest part of that profit on network). -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se _______________________________________________ dispatch mailing list dispatch@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Qin Wu
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mark Nottingham
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP David Singer
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Gunnar Heikkilä
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP David Singer
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Gunnar Heikkilä
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Ali C. Begen (abegen)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Henry Sinnreich
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Lars Eggert
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Kathy McEwen
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mark Watson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Ben Niven-Jenkins
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Dirk Kutscher
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP David Singer
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Van Caenegem, Tom (Tom)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP David Singer
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP David Singer
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mcdysan, David E
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Kathy McEwen
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP David Singer
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Kathy McEwen
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP ken carlberg
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Roland Bless
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Toby Moncaster
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Toby Moncaster
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Henry Sinnreich
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Janet P Gunn
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Kevin Mason
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Ben Niven-Jenkins
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Ben Niven-Jenkins
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP David Singer
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP David Singer
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Benjamin Niven-Jenkins
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Benjamin Niven-Jenkins
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mark Baugher
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Adam Roach
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Woundy, Richard
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Kathy McEwen
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Marshall Eubanks