Re: [httpstreaming] httpstreaming Digest, Vol 3, Issue 1
"Ali C. Begen (abegen)" <abegen@cisco.com> Wed, 03 November 2010 14:23 UTC
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From: "Ali C. Begen (abegen)" <abegen@cisco.com>
To: "David A. Bryan" <dbryan@ethernot.org>, Hasnaa Moustafa <hasnaa.moustafa@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [httpstreaming] httpstreaming Digest, Vol 3, Issue 1
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If the room is indeed small, can't we try to get a larger room (e.g., one of the meeting rooms)? Also, will webex be enabled? -acbegen > -----Original Message----- > From: httpstreaming-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:httpstreaming-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of David A. Bryan > Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 10:13 AM > To: Hasnaa Moustafa > Cc: httpstreaming > Subject: Re: [httpstreaming] httpstreaming Digest, Vol 3, Issue 1 > > The floorplan map available for download on the IETF webpage has no > names or labels yet, so not really helpful! We will have to wait until > we arrive at the event to get a map. > > "The IESG Room" is a room assigned to the IESG for their use (and > which Alexey has been very helpful in getting for our use). It will > have a sign outside that says IESG room, and will proabably be labeled > as such on the map you get at registration time. In any case, I can > send out that info early in the week once we get to Beijing. > > Note the room is likely pretty small. These are typically more > conference rooms than large session rooms, so it appears it will hold > something like 30 people -- arrive early, it will likely be standing > room only! > > David > > On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 8:33 AM, Hasnaa Moustafa > <hasnaa.moustafa@gmail.com> wrote: > > Would you please precise which room exactly? > > > >> > >>> > >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >>> From: Qin Wu <sunseawq@huawei.com> > >>> To: httpstreaming@ietf.org > >>> Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2010 09:02:52 +0800 > >>> Subject: [httpstreaming] Time and location for HTTP streaming bar BoF > >>> Hi, experts: > >>> We have got one IESG room for our Bar BOF with the AD's kind help. Thank > >>> Alex for arranging this for us. > >>> As we voted before through Doodle, the Bar BoF is scheduled on > >>> Wednesday(10th,Nov) evening > >>> from 19:30PM to 21:00PM. > >>> If you are interested in this work or would like to contribute, please > >>> join our discussion. > >>> If you have any other suggestions, please let us know. > >>> > >>> Regards! > >>> -Qin > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >>> From: Qin Wu <sunseawq@huawei.com> > >>> To: httpstreaming@ietf.org > >>> Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2010 11:19:58 +0800 > >>> Subject: [httpstreaming] Meeting Agenda preparation for Bar BOF of HTTP > >>> Streaming > >>> Hi, Folks: > >>> This is just a quick note to let you know that preparations are > >>> proceeding for > >>> HTTP Streaming Bar BOF meeting. > >>> Based on what we have on the table and some suggestions from experts on > >>> this list, we think at least three topics should be covered in the meeting > >>> agenda: > >>> a. Goal and Scope Discussion > >>> b. Use Case discussion > >>> c. Gap Analysis > >>> if you have any questions or comments, please feel free to ping the list. > >>> We will soon create meeting agenda based on your feedbacks. > >>> > >>> Regards! > >>> -Qin > >>> > >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >>> From: Qin Wu <sunseawq@huawei.com> > >>> To: Mark Watson <watsonm@netflix.com> > >>> Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2010 15:54:27 +0800 > >>> Subject: Re: [httpstreaming] Efficient manifest push (Re: FW: New Version > >>> Notification for draft-zong-httpstreaming-gap-analysis-01) > >>> Hi, > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Mark Watson" <watsonm@netflix.com> > >>> To: "Qin Wu" <sunseawq@huawei.com> > >>> Cc: <httpstreaming@ietf.org> > >>> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 12:30 PM > >>> Subject: Re: [httpstreaming] Efficient manifest push (Re: FW: New Version > >>> Notification for draft-zong-httpstreaming-gap-analysis-01) > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Oct 28, 2010, at 8:02 PM, Qin Wu wrote: > >>> > > >>> > [Qin]: Sounds like a good idea to me. I think this is one way to build > >>> > the interoperable solution for concurrent live streaming viewing with > >>> > backwards compability to existing cache and client, which may bring the > >>> > advantage of alleviating server load. But I am not sure the MIME subtype > >>> > has the right semantic to do this. > >>> > >>> [MW] Can you elaborate ? > >>> > >>> [Qin]: That's what I intepret from what you propose for efficient > >>> manifest delivery. > >>> As you said, we may need to define new MIME type for manifest push, I > >>> agree. > >>> Futhermore, I think it will be a good idea to use such feature also for > >>> media stream efficient delivery when > >>> concurrent streams needs to be served by the same web server and the old > >>> chunk that has been playout and in aging conditions > >>> need to be dropped. > >>> > >>> The idea would be if the smart cache in between knows the semantics of > >>> new MIME type, this smart > >>> caches can choose to replace/update the previous chunk with the new chunk > >>> and > >>> only serve the newest chunk to all the concurrent live streaming viewers. > >>> > >>> For details, we may discuss this in Beijing meeting. > >>> > >>> > We may need some new MIME subtype and new behaviors on how to process > >>> > it. > >>> > > >>> > ...Mark > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > On Oct 27, 2010, at 11:51 PM, Thomas Stockhammer wrote: > >>> > > >>> >> Ning, > >>> >> > >>> >> thanks .... > >>> >> > >>> >> I recognized that you only replied to some of my comments. > >>> >> Does this mean that you agree/disagree with the remaining ones? > >>> >> > >>> >> Inline some more with [T] ... [\T] > >>> >> > >>> >> Thomas > >>> >> > >>> >>> - I am not sure I understand the term "is encrypted into files" > >>> >>> [ZN]: I mean "use file with media container" here. > >>> >> > >>> >> [T] I do not understand this either! [\T] > >>> >> > >>> >>> - What do you mean "normal text file"? > >>> >>> [ZN]: traditional web page (e.g. html file). > >>> >> > >>> >> [T] we should be much more careful with terminology [\T] > >>> >> > >>> >>> - The intelligence in the Adaptive Streaming over HTTP is almost > >>> >>> exclusively in the client, there is no negotiation > >>> >>> [ZN]: Sorry for confusion, "negotiation" should be "massage > >>> >>> exchange". > >>> >> > >>> >> [T] > >>> >> First I hope this is a typo, otherwise I get more curious ...! > >>> >> Secondly, I am still not clear what needs to be done beyond regular > >>> >> http connections > >>> >> [\T] > >>> >> > >>> >>> 5.2) > >>> >>> - It is not correct that the 3GPP MPD needs to be updated even for > >>> >>> live. If you use a template mode, the MPD stays static until some > >>> >>> "unforeseen" event occurs. Client and Content Preparation have agreed > >>> >>> on rules to construct URIs. > >>> >>> - If necessary, the MPD update happens asynchronously to the media > >>> >>> decoding, so this is not considered to be a problem. > >>> >>> [ZN]: I didn't intend to state that pull model doesn't work. My > >>> >>> point is, > >>> >>> why not investigating the possible usage of push model in certain > >>> >>> cases > >>> >>> without experiencing the above mentioned "unforeseen" event or > >>> >>> asynchronous > >>> >>> updates? > >>> >> > >>> >> [T] > >>> >> "Push" is a very very broad term. In Web applications you can for > >>> >> example use AJAX or RSS/ATOM like techniques for push-like updates. If > >>> >> you use conditional GET for regular polling, this is very efficient. > >>> >> The MPD updates in 3GPP work in a similar manner. If you use polling, > >>> >> conditional GETs and templates, you are extremely efficient. We should > >>> >> really understand what we mean by push model? HTTP-based delivery is > >>> >> rich and provides many successfully deployed options. > >>> >> > >>> >> Should you really refer to something completely different such as IP > >>> >> multicast, then I would feel very very uncomfortable. > >>> >> [\T] > >>> >> > >>> >>> - There is for sure mechanisms to deliver important packets more > >>> >>> reliably in HTTP - you just request it earlier. In anticipation of > >>> >>> switching a smart client may also prepare such data. The client is > >>> >>> intelligent. > >>> >>> [ZN]: Well, I think this startup issue doesn't like the pre-fetch > >>> >>> which is > >>> >>> of course still valuable to improve playback. IMO, it is hard to > >>> >>> predict > >>> >>> which channel the user will switch to in the next moment, hence it > >>> >>> is not > >>> >>> reasonable to request important packets for other channels. Did I > >>> >>> misunderstand you? > >>> >> > >>> >> [T] > >>> >> I would not be worried to have the MPD and the initialization segment > >>> >> of the two neighboring channels ready in my device. Again, the client > >>> >> can be very smart, especially as it does have access to all the > >>> >> information. > >>> >> > >>> >> In general, I do not disagree that we can create more detailed use > >>> >> cases for environments in which we envision that HTTP streaming will > >>> >> be used. This may include live multi-channel environments. However, we > >>> >> should not conclude per se that the existing technologies do have a > >>> >> problem. > >>> >> [\T] > >>> >> > >>> >>> - 3GPP defines QoE metrics that can reused also for HTTP Streaming. > >>> >>> there will also be efforts in MPEG in including QoE. > >>> >>> [ZN]: I am not proposing to focus on defining QoE metrics, but > >>> >>> looking on > >>> >>> the protocols to report such metrics, like RTCP. We will support the > >>> >>> work in > >>> >>> 3GPP/MPEG and cooperate with them to see how to capsulate the > >>> >>> metrics in a > >>> >>> series of messages. > >>> >> > >>> >> [T] > >>> >> What do you mean with "capsulate"? > >>> >> Also, can you be more specific what metrics there are in RTCP that can > >>> >> also be used in HTTP Streaming. I consider that anything dealing with > >>> >> packet loss is irrelevant. I also do not see the relevance of sending > >>> >> regular 5 seconds receiver reports as the content is static and > >>> >> adaptation will not happen. Some reporting on Media Presentation level > >>> >> may be sufficient, for example when the presentation has been > >>> >> completed. > >>> >> [\T] > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> --- > >>> >> Dr. Thomas Stockhammer (CEO) || stockhammer@nomor.de || phone +49 89 > >>> >> 978980 02 || cell +491725702667 || http://www.nomor-research.com > >>> >> Nomor Research GmbH - Sitz der Gesellschaft: München - > >>> >> Registergericht: München, HRB 165856 – Umsatzsteuer-ID: DE238047637 - > >>> >> Geschäftsführer: Dr. Thomas Stockhammer, Dr. Ingo Viering. > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> _______________________________________________ > >>> >> httpstreaming mailing list > >>> >> httpstreaming@ietf.org > >>> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming > >>> >> > >>> > > >>> > _______________________________________________ > >>> > httpstreaming mailing list > >>> > httpstreaming@ietf.org > >>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming > >>> > >>> > >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >>> From: Qin Wu <sunseawq@huawei.com> > >>> To: Mark Watson <watsonm@netflix.com>, "Severa, Michael J (Mike)" > >>> <mike.severa@alcatel-lucent.com> > >>> Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2010 16:51:45 +0800 > >>> Subject: Re: [httpstreaming] Efficient manifest push (Re: FW: New Version > >>> Notification for draft-zong-httpstreaming-gap-analysis-01) > >>> Hi, > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Mark Watson" <watsonm@netflix.com> > >>> To: "Severa, Michael J (Mike)" <mike.severa@alcatel-lucent.com> > >>> Cc: "Qin Wu" <sunseawq@huawei.com>; <httpstreaming@ietf.org> > >>> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 12:32 PM > >>> Subject: Re: [httpstreaming] Efficient manifest push (Re: FW: New Version > >>> Notification for draft-zong-httpstreaming-gap-analysis-01) > >>> > >>> > >>> Server-sent events defines a stream format for a sequence of DOM events. > >>> Essentially each is a set of name/value pairs. It's a very simple text > >>> syntax. Not really suitable for manifest updates or video stream segments. > >>> But mainly it does not carry any semantics that would enable cache > >>> optimizations. > >>> > >>> [Qin]: I think it is possible to use server-sent event over HTTP or using > >>> dedicated server-push protocol to push text based manifest or some metadata > >>> for current playlist to the client since the manifest can be in different > >>> format. > >>> But it is true, server push event has no semantics to carry video > >>> streaming segments, since video streaming segement is binary data rather > >>> than textual data. > >>> > >>> ...Mark > >>> > >>> On Oct 28, 2010, at 8:56 PM, Severa, Michael J (Mike) wrote: > >>> > >>> > Hi. Check out server-sent events in HTML5. Essentially what is > >>> > described here, though intended more for the application layer than the > >>> > media layer. With a decoder interface at the application layer it would > >>> > probably be possible to do this now by using that feature. > >>> > > >>> > Mike > >>> > ________________________________________ > >>> > From: httpstreaming-bounces@ietf.org [httpstreaming-bounces@ietf.org] > >>> > On Behalf Of Qin Wu [sunseawq@huawei.com] > >>> > Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 8:02 PM > >>> > To: Mark Watson; httpstreaming@ietf.org > >>> > Subject: Re: [httpstreaming] Efficient manifest push (Re: FW: New > >>> > Version Notification for draft-zong-httpstreaming-gap-analysis-01) > >>> > > >>> > Hi, > >>> > ----- Original Message ----- > >>> > From: "Mark Watson" <watsonm@netflix.com> > >>> > To: <httpstreaming@ietf.org> > >>> > Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 3:17 AM > >>> > Subject: [httpstreaming] Efficient manifest push (Re: FW: New Version > >>> > Notification for draft-zong-httpstreaming-gap-analysis-01) > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Here is an idea sparked by Thomas' mention below of AJAX and RSS push > >>> > services. > >>> > > >>> > In these services the client establishes a long-lived HTTP connection > >>> > to a server on which it sends a single request. The response comes back in > >>> > chunks, over time, enabling the server to "push" new content as it becomes > >>> > available. Generally caches and proxies are transparent to this, although I > >>> > think it does not work with some older proxies which expect to receive the > >>> > whole response from upstream before returning anything to the client. > >>> > Perhaps these are all gone by now. But anyway, the "chunks" cannot really be > >>> > cached as the proxy has no idea what they are. > >>> > > >>> > In the case of a document, such as a manifest, which is being > >>> > periodically updated, or a sequence of different files, one could very > >>> > simply expose these semantics in a standard way, which would enable caches > >>> > to do their thing. > >>> > > >>> > For example, suppose we define a new MIME type, multipart/versions, > >>> > where each part of the multipart MIME response is a different version of the > >>> > originally requested resource. A smart cache receiving a request for this > >>> > resource can cache the "parts" as they arrive, each replacing the previously > >>> > cached version. It can serve multiple incoming persistent connections with > >>> > one upstream persistent connection, providing scalability. It would be > >>> > transparent to existing caches. Clients would indicate their support in the > >>> > Accept header and clients which did not support this mode would just poll > >>> > the resource in the usual way with conditional GET requests. > >>> > > >>> > All that would be required from a standards perspective would be > >>> > definition of the multipart/versions MIME type. > >>> > > >>> > Maybe this is not new. I could easily imagine CDNs do this kind of > >>> > thing internally already. > >>> > > >>> > Similarly, one could imagine a multipart/sequence MIME type where the > >>> > parts form a sequence of objects. The client requests an object and (if it > >>> > indicates support of the multipart/sequence MIME type) gets back that object > >>> > and subsequent ones in the sequence (with their file names). Again, smart > >>> > caches could optimise for scalability, caching the parts as separate > >>> > objects. This could help with delivery of segments in the live case, but > >>> > again maintaining backwards-compatibility. Again, perhaps CDNs already do > >>> > something like this internally. > >>> > > >>> > I'm not proposing to progress these ideas, just thought they were > >>> > interesting. > >>> > > >>> > [Qin]: Sounds like a good idea to me. I think this is one way to build > >>> > the interoperable solution for concurrent live streaming viewing with > >>> > backwards compability to existing cache and client, which may bring the > >>> > advantage of alleviating server load. But I am not sure the MIME subtype > >>> > has the right semantic to do this. We may need some new MIME subtype and new > >>> > behaviors on how to process it. > >>> > > >>> > ...Mark > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > On Oct 27, 2010, at 11:51 PM, Thomas Stockhammer wrote: > >>> > > >>> >> Ning, > >>> >> > >>> >> thanks .... > >>> >> > >>> >> I recognized that you only replied to some of my comments. > >>> >> Does this mean that you agree/disagree with the remaining ones? > >>> >> > >>> >> Inline some more with [T] ... [\T] > >>> >> > >>> >> Thomas > >>> >> > >>> >>> - I am not sure I understand the term "is encrypted into files" > >>> >>> [ZN]: I mean "use file with media container" here. > >>> >> > >>> >> [T] I do not understand this either! [\T] > >>> >> > >>> >>> - What do you mean "normal text file"? > >>> >>> [ZN]: traditional web page (e.g. html file). > >>> >> > >>> >> [T] we should be much more careful with terminology [\T] > >>> >> > >>> >>> - The intelligence in the Adaptive Streaming over HTTP is almost > >>> >>> exclusively in the client, there is no negotiation > >>> >>> [ZN]: Sorry for confusion, "negotiation" should be "massage > >>> >>> exchange". > >>> >> > >>> >> [T] > >>> >> First I hope this is a typo, otherwise I get more curious ...! > >>> >> Secondly, I am still not clear what needs to be done beyond regular > >>> >> http connections > >>> >> [\T] > >>> >> > >>> >>> 5.2) > >>> >>> - It is not correct that the 3GPP MPD needs to be updated even for > >>> >>> live. If you use a template mode, the MPD stays static until some > >>> >>> "unforeseen" event occurs. Client and Content Preparation have agreed > >>> >>> on rules to construct URIs. > >>> >>> - If necessary, the MPD update happens asynchronously to the media > >>> >>> decoding, so this is not considered to be a problem. > >>> >>> [ZN]: I didn't intend to state that pull model doesn't work. My > >>> >>> point is, > >>> >>> why not investigating the possible usage of push model in certain > >>> >>> cases > >>> >>> without experiencing the above mentioned "unforeseen" event or > >>> >>> asynchronous > >>> >>> updates? > >>> >> > >>> >> [T] > >>> >> "Push" is a very very broad term. In Web applications you can for > >>> >> example use AJAX or RSS/ATOM like techniques for push-like updates. If > >>> >> you use conditional GET for regular polling, this is very efficient. > >>> >> The MPD updates in 3GPP work in a similar manner. If you use polling, > >>> >> conditional GETs and templates, you are extremely efficient. We should > >>> >> really understand what we mean by push model? HTTP-based delivery is > >>> >> rich and provides many successfully deployed options. > >>> >> > >>> >> Should you really refer to something completely different such as IP > >>> >> multicast, then I would feel very very uncomfortable. > >>> >> [\T] > >>> >> > >>> >>> - There is for sure mechanisms to deliver important packets more > >>> >>> reliably in HTTP - you just request it earlier. In anticipation of > >>> >>> switching a smart client may also prepare such data. The client is > >>> >>> intelligent. > >>> >>> [ZN]: Well, I think this startup issue doesn't like the pre-fetch > >>> >>> which is > >>> >>> of course still valuable to improve playback. IMO, it is hard to > >>> >>> predict > >>> >>> which channel the user will switch to in the next moment, hence it > >>> >>> is not > >>> >>> reasonable to request important packets for other channels. Did I > >>> >>> misunderstand you? > >>> >> > >>> >> [T] > >>> >> I would not be worried to have the MPD and the initialization segment > >>> >> of the two neighboring channels ready in my device. Again, the client > >>> >> can be very smart, especially as it does have access to all the > >>> >> information. > >>> >> > >>> >> In general, I do not disagree that we can create more detailed use > >>> >> cases for environments in which we envision that HTTP streaming will > >>> >> be used. This may include live multi-channel environments. However, we > >>> >> should not conclude per se that the existing technologies do have a > >>> >> problem. > >>> >> [\T] > >>> >> > >>> >>> - 3GPP defines QoE metrics that can reused also for HTTP Streaming. > >>> >>> there will also be efforts in MPEG in including QoE. > >>> >>> [ZN]: I am not proposing to focus on defining QoE metrics, but > >>> >>> looking on > >>> >>> the protocols to report such metrics, like RTCP. We will support the > >>> >>> work in > >>> >>> 3GPP/MPEG and cooperate with them to see how to capsulate the > >>> >>> metrics in a > >>> >>> series of messages. > >>> >> > >>> >> [T] > >>> >> What do you mean with "capsulate"? > >>> >> Also, can you be more specific what metrics there are in RTCP that can > >>> >> also be used in HTTP Streaming. I consider that anything dealing with > >>> >> packet loss is irrelevant. I also do not see the relevance of sending > >>> >> regular 5 seconds receiver reports as the content is static and > >>> >> adaptation will not happen. Some reporting on Media Presentation level > >>> >> may be sufficient, for example when the presentation has been > >>> >> completed. > >>> >> [\T] > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> --- > >>> >> Dr. Thomas Stockhammer (CEO) || stockhammer@nomor.de || phone +49 89 > >>> >> 978980 02 || cell +491725702667 || http://www.nomor-research.com > >>> >> Nomor Research GmbH - Sitz der Gesellschaft: München - > >>> >> Registergericht: München, HRB 165856 – Umsatzsteuer-ID: DE238047637 - > >>> >> Geschäftsführer: Dr. Thomas Stockhammer, Dr. Ingo Viering. > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> _______________________________________________ > >>> >> httpstreaming mailing list > >>> >> httpstreaming@ietf.org > >>> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming > >>> >> > >>> > > >>> > _______________________________________________ > >>> > httpstreaming mailing list > >>> > httpstreaming@ietf.org > >>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming > >>> > _______________________________________________ > >>> > httpstreaming mailing list > >>> > httpstreaming@ietf.org > >>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> httpstreaming mailing list > >>> httpstreaming@ietf.org > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > httpstreaming mailing list > > httpstreaming@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming > > > > > _______________________________________________ > httpstreaming mailing list > httpstreaming@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming
- Re: [httpstreaming] httpstreaming Digest, Vol 3, … Hasnaa Moustafa
- Re: [httpstreaming] httpstreaming Digest, Vol 3, … David A. Bryan
- Re: [httpstreaming] httpstreaming Digest, Vol 3, … Ali C. Begen (abegen)
- Re: [httpstreaming] httpstreaming Digest, Vol 3, … Ning Zong