Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP
Marshall Eubanks <tme@americafree.tv> Tue, 16 November 2010 16:42 UTC
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From: Marshall Eubanks <tme@americafree.tv>
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Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 11:43:08 -0500
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To: "Mike Hammer (hmmr)" <hmmr@cisco.com>
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Cc: dispatch@ietf.org, httpstreaming <httpstreaming@ietf.org>, conex@ietf.org, Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>, "GARCIA ARANDA, JOSEJAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)" <jose_javier.garcia_aranda@alcatel-lucent.com>
Subject: Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP
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On Nov 10, 2010, at 10:05 AM, Mike Hammer (hmmr) wrote: > Nice theory. Until it gets down to who is going to pay for the > over-provisioning. It is a mistake to call it over-provisioning. (Anything needed for proper performance I would call proper provisioning.) And, of course, the customers pay for it. (It is interesting that no one ever seems to ask who pays for QOS.) It is a question of where is it better to put resources, and I think that there is a long history to show that in many (not all) situations it is better to put resources in provisioning than in QOS. I also think that a modest amount of FEC would go a long way to address concerns about real-time traffic, and I surprised that this is not already used routinely. Regards Marshall > > Is the ARPU going to go up? Are content distributors willing to pay > more to send that data? > > Also, note how the volume of traffic always seems to expand to fill the > BW available. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dispatch-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Mark Watson > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 11:19 PM > To: Kathy McEwen > Cc: dispatch@ietf.org; httpstreaming; conex@ietf.org; Ingemar Johansson > S; Lars Eggert; GARCIA ARANDA, JOSEJAVIER (JOSE JAVIER) > Subject: Re: [dispatch] [httpstreaming] Q-HTTP > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On Nov 9, 2010, at 7:01 PM, "Kathy McEwen" > <kathy@iridescentnetworks.com> wrote: > >> One problem with the voice analogy is that the sheer volume of data >> traversing the web today is not driven by voice...it's video...and > it's not >> even a fraction of the viewing that folks are doing of broadcast > content. A >> solution that depends on "simply" having too much bandwidth, is that > someone >> is paying for it. Eventually it hits someone's pocket books....and if > there >> isn't sufficient revenue to cover the costs, the too much does > degrade. >> Today the mass media is consumed via cheap broadcast technologies... > why >> shouldn't the web (fixed and mobile) be as cheap AND as good?? >> > > It should, the question is what is the cheapest way to do it. QoS is > expensive too. I tend to agree with the thesis below that history is > telling us that avoiding scarcity in the first place is cheaper than > rationing here. > > ...Mark > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: httpstreaming-bounces@ietf.org > [mailto:httpstreaming-bounces@ietf.org] >> On Behalf Of Lars Eggert >> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 8:02 PM >> To: David Singer >> Cc: Ingemar Johansson S; GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER); >> httpstreaming; dispatch@ietf.org; conex@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP >> >> On 2010-11-9, at 18:31, David Singer wrote: >>> It is that there are two ways to solve a real-time bandwidth need. > One is >> to reserve bandwidth, manage QoS and so on; one gets protocols and > systems >> like diffserv, ATM, and so on. The other is simply to have 'too much' > of >> the resource. Though it feels wrong, the latter often ends up being > the >> cheaper and easier solution. So, for example, voice over IP is > getting used >> quite a lot, and to good effect, on the internet today not because we > have >> successfully deployed any bandwidth reservation or QoS management > protocols >> and systems, but because the available bandwidth is, for the most > part, >> greatly in excess of what is needed, and the systems can adapt in > real-time >> to what they get (rather than asking for what they want). The same is > true >> for multimedia delivery; the complexity of RTP + TCP friendliness + > QoS >> management is not worth it compared to having adaptable end-systems > and >> overall more bandwidth than needed. >> >> Fully agreed. >> >> Folks who like pictures can take a look at >> https://fit.nokia.com/lars/talks/2008-mit-cfp.pdf, which gives much > the same >> argument. >> >> Lars >> >> _______________________________________________ >> httpstreaming mailing list >> httpstreaming@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming >> > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > _______________________________________________ > httpstreaming mailing list > httpstreaming@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming >
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Qin Wu
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mark Nottingham
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP David Singer
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Gunnar Heikkilä
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP David Singer
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Gunnar Heikkilä
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Ali C. Begen (abegen)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Henry Sinnreich
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Lars Eggert
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Kathy McEwen
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mark Watson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Ben Niven-Jenkins
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Dirk Kutscher
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP David Singer
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Van Caenegem, Tom (Tom)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP David Singer
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP David Singer
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mcdysan, David E
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Kathy McEwen
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP David Singer
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Kathy McEwen
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP ken carlberg
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Roland Bless
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Toby Moncaster
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Toby Moncaster
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Henry Sinnreich
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Janet P Gunn
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP GARCIA ARANDA, JOSE JAVIER (JOSE JAVIER)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Kevin Mason
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Ben Niven-Jenkins
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Ben Niven-Jenkins
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP David Singer
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP David Singer
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Benjamin Niven-Jenkins
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Benjamin Niven-Jenkins
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Mark Baugher
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Mike Hammer (hmmr)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP Adam Roach
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [dispatch] [conex] Q-HTTP DIAZ VIZCAINO, LUIS MIGUEL (LUIS MIGUEL)
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Woundy, Richard
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Kathy McEwen
- Re: [httpstreaming] [conex] [dispatch] Q-HTTP Marshall Eubanks