Re: [hybi] Anti-patterns (was Re: I-D Action:draft-ietf-hybi-thewebsocketprotocol-01.txt)

[Joe Hildebrand <[e-mail]>]

Perhaps I was unclear in my previous message.

None of this is proposing text to add/remove/change in the draft.  That is
not always required, but on this thread, it *is*, by chair fiat.

This thread is OFF-TOPIC.  We're not here to change the way that the world
works with this one protocol as the exemplar.  We're here to design a
client-server protocol that fits in to the existing web environment, with
current best practices for application-layer protocols.  That is why we
started, what we signed up for in the charter, and what we're going to
finish.


On 9/2/10 8:07 PM, "Shelby Moore" <[e-mail]> wrote:

> The _ONLY_ positive scaling paradigm on the internet is the Bazaar...
> 
> 
> 
> [snip]
> 
>>> Natural systems self-organize.  Software systems do not.
>> 
>> 
>> First it is not correct to imply that running software can not
>> self-organize without programming
> 
> [snip]
> 
>> I suggest to you that is has already been proven that lowering the cycle
>> costs for the feedback synergy loop between what software is doing and the
>> programming (i.e. Bazaar and peer programmer model) squashes the Cathedral
>> model in the reality of the free market:
>> 
>> http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/
>> 
>> And WebSockets is about applications, application programmers, and end
>> users. That is an evolutionary feedback system.
> 
> 
> The _ONLY_ positive scaling paradigm on the internet is the Bazaar!
> 
> Listen to this, especially around the 4:20:
> 
> http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/linux1_d50_48kbs.mp3
> (48kbps)
> http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/linux1_d50_96kbs.mp3
> (96kbps)
> 
> 
> 
> [snip]
> 
>> well as P2P.  However, the basic presumption of the WWW is that user is
>> the programmer.  HTML was specifically designed for the amatuer
>> programmer. And WebSockets opens a whole new world of possibilities
>> especially if we don't force users to interact with a server. Rather
>> spontaneously users could start interacting with each other.
> 
> Listen to the first 1.5 mins of the above audio, where it is explained
> that half-amateur programmers bashing on code and releasing new
> executables every day, evolves 6 months faster than cathedral models of
> software evolution.
> 
> Heck as further evidence, we can't even produce a simple orthogonal
> fragmentation framing and semantic message layer[7] in this WG without
> getting bogged down in so many conflated issues (authentication,
> cross-protocol security, encryption, etc) that have nothing to do with
> WebSocket. First draft WebSocket, and leave those other things for the
> market or a new WG to handle orthogonally. Don't conflate everything and
> paralyze your evolution.  Smallest atomic things are the fastest.
> 
> 
> [7] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hybi/current/msg03901.html
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hybi/current/msg03919.html
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hybi/current/msg03854.html
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hybi/current/msg03833.html
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-- 
Joe Hildebrand
(as chair)