Re: [hybi] Anti-patterns (was Re: I-D Action:draft-ietf-hybi-thewebsocketprotocol-01.txt)

["Shelby Moore" <[e-mail]>]

This is my last post in this thread, everyone else can have the last word.

Joe, I just got around to reading this, so I apologize if I have to
violate my private email where I wrote that I had no more need to post to
the list. I didn't expect you to miss my point, and I don't intend this as
disrespect to your authority but rather to clarify.

I did propose removing the SOP and cross-protocol security language from
the draft.

The relevance is that current best practice in the real world, is that
coorperative servers with <script> and <iframe> are used to violate SOP
and do cross-protocol communication, because Coase's Theorem can not be
violated. The users demand that the internet be E2E and they get it now by
proxy (and they are pushing for more). I postulate that if ever browsers
try to enforce SOP on <script> and <iframe> then you will see people use
flash, and if flash is closed to SOP, then you will see users (open source
community) make new plugins or simple make new browsers.

Btw, HTTP is already P2P because any client can run an HTTP server, only
E2E blocks it.

Anyone can fiat until they are blue in the face, but they will never beat
nature nor fundamental laws. They either bring their work in tune with
reality or they suffer in the market place. Btw, that fiat order has
already lost, and only the fools will let themself sink with the Titantic:

http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=2507#comment-277125

Apologies perhaps I was unclear in my previous message(s).


> Perhaps I was unclear in my previous message.
>
> None of this is proposing text to add/remove/change in the draft.  That is
> not always required, but on this thread, it *is*, by chair fiat.
>
> This thread is OFF-TOPIC.  We're not here to change the way that the world
> works with this one protocol as the exemplar.  We're here to design a
> client-server protocol that fits in to the existing web environment, with
> current best practices for application-layer protocols.  That is why we
> started, what we signed up for in the charter, and what we're going to
> finish.
>
>
> On 9/2/10 8:07 PM, "Shelby Moore" <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
>> The _ONLY_ positive scaling paradigm on the internet is the Bazaar...
>>
>>
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>>> Natural systems self-organize.  Software systems do not.
>>>
>>>
>>> First it is not correct to imply that running software can not
>>> self-organize without programming
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> I suggest to you that is has already been proven that lowering the
>>> cycle
>>> costs for the feedback synergy loop between what software is doing and
>>> the
>>> programming (i.e. Bazaar and peer programmer model) squashes the
>>> Cathedral
>>> model in the reality of the free market:
>>>
>>> http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/
>>>
>>> And WebSockets is about applications, application programmers, and end
>>> users. That is an evolutionary feedback system.
>>
>>
>> The _ONLY_ positive scaling paradigm on the internet is the Bazaar!
>>
>> Listen to this, especially around the 4:20:
>>
>> http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/linux1_d50_48kbs.mp3
>> (48kbps)
>> http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/linux1_d50_96kbs.mp3
>> (96kbps)
>>
>>
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> well as P2P.  However, the basic presumption of the WWW is that user is
>>> the programmer.  HTML was specifically designed for the amatuer
>>> programmer. And WebSockets opens a whole new world of possibilities
>>> especially if we don't force users to interact with a server. Rather
>>> spontaneously users could start interacting with each other.
>>
>> Listen to the first 1.5 mins of the above audio, where it is explained
>> that half-amateur programmers bashing on code and releasing new
>> executables every day, evolves 6 months faster than cathedral models of
>> software evolution.
>>
>> Heck as further evidence, we can't even produce a simple orthogonal
>> fragmentation framing and semantic message layer[7] in this WG without
>> getting bogged down in so many conflated issues (authentication,
>> cross-protocol security, encryption, etc) that have nothing to do with
>> WebSocket. First draft WebSocket, and leave those other things for the
>> market or a new WG to handle orthogonally. Don't conflate everything and
>> paralyze your evolution.  Smallest atomic things are the fastest.
>>
>>
>> [7] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hybi/current/msg03901.html
>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hybi/current/msg03919.html
>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hybi/current/msg03854.html
>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hybi/current/msg03833.html
>> _______________________________________________
>> hybi mailing list
>> [e-mail]
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hybi
>
> --
> Joe Hildebrand
> (as chair)
>
>
>