Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process!
Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com> Sat, 30 January 2010 06:49 UTC
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From: Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>
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Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 22:49:34 -0800
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To: Greg Wilkins <gregw@webtide.com>
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Cc: Hybi <hybi@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process!
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Here's comments on some of the issues that did not seem to me to merit their own thread. On Jan 29, 2010, at 2:55 PM, Greg Wilkins wrote: > > It was a little silly having to implement two framing mechanisms > when only one of them has an API to enable it's usage. This is a little lame, but it will ultimately be fixed at the API level once we have a good way to represent binary data on the client side. > > So if you look on the wire of cometd running over websocket, > it just looks like long polling. We use the same /meta/connect > long poll message as a keep alive and as our ack carrier. > > We've saved 1 connection, which is great. But I fear that > saving will be eaten up by the ability of application developers > to open any number of websockets. Doesn't it also save you the need to potentially close and reopen the connection that would have been used for messages from the client to the server? It seems like proper full duplex is a significant win, especially over SSL where connection setup is very expensive. > > If we are not running in reliable message mode, then we don't > need to wait for a /meta/connect before sending a message > to the client, so we get a small improvement in maximal > message latency for current usage and a good improvement > for streaming usage. Wouldn't you also get an improvement in throughput, and not just latency, for streaming since you no longer need to repeatedly send full HTTP headers? > But as I've frequently said, it works ok, but it solves > few of my real pain points as comet vendor and it's > caused me more code/complexity not less. I'm curious to hear about some of the pain points that you think are not addressed. You mentioned two (reliable message delivery and maintaining idle connections) and I think you're right that those should be addressed. Any others? > It's not provided any semantics that would allow > any cometd users to consider going directly to websockets > instead of using a comet framework. Sure it makes sending > messages easy, but that is always easy. It does not help > for when you can't send messages or when connections drop > or servers change etc. These are all the realworld things > that must be dealt with and ws makes this harder not easier. What kind of changes do you think would make it more practical to use WebSocket directly rather than go through a framework? Regards, Maciej
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- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Wenbo Zhu
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Ian Fette (イアンフェッティ)
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Rob Sayre
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Ian Hickson
- [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Rob Sayre
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Ian Fette (イアンフェッティ)
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Salvatore Loreto
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Ian Fette (イアンフェッティ)
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… SM
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… SM
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Francis Brosnan Blazquez
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… SM
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Jamie Lokier
- [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Roberto Peon
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… SM
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Maciej Stachowiak
- [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (was R… Maciej Stachowiak
- [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Technic… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Roberto Peon
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Greg Wilkins
- [hybi] Process, was: Technical feedback. was: Pro… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Process, was: Technical feedback. was:… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Process, was: Technical feedback. was:… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Process, was: Technical feedback. was:… SM
- Re: [hybi] Process, was: Technical feedback. was:… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Process, was: Technical feedback. was:… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Process, was: Technical feedback. was:… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? John Fallows
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Salvatore Loreto
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] Process! Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Salvatore Loreto
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Anne van Kesteren
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Anne van Kesteren
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Thomson, Martin
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Anne van Kesteren
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Process! SM
- Re: [hybi] Process! Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Thomson, Martin
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Francis Brosnan Blazquez
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Mridul Muralidharan
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Mridul Muralidharan
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Pieter Hintjens
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Mridul Muralidharan
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Justin Erenkrantz
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- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Graham Klyne
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- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Salvatore Loreto
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Ian Hickson