Re: [hybi] Process, was: Technical feedback. was: Process!
Greg Wilkins <gregw@webtide.com> Sun, 31 January 2010 08:16 UTC
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Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 19:16:38 +1100
From: Greg Wilkins <gregw@webtide.com>
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To: Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>, Hybi <hybi@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [hybi] Process, was: Technical feedback. was: Process!
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Maciej Stachowiak wrote: > I think you have raised some valid issues, and I personally think they should be addressed > (if not in 1.0 of the protocol, at least understand how a later protocol revision could handle it). > However, I must admit that some of your comments sound like handwaving that assumes the solution > without clearly stating the problem. For example, when you talk about the problem of figuring > out your idle timeout, it seems like the problem statement is very clear. Whenever you talk > about the desire to have arbitrary metadata, I haven't seen you clearly relate that back to a > specific use case or concrete problem to be solved. I can see why feedback of that second sort > might not get much of a hearing. I think if you focus on concrete problems you have run into > as an implementor, you will have much better luck. Maciej, I think that is a pretty unfair comment. I've not provided much detail this time around because the points have been made so many times before. I have previously provided many lengthy detailed discussions about these points. I have proposed several concrete enhancements to websocket, I've blogged at length about some other ways to improve websocket http://blogs.webtide.com/gregw/entry/how_to_improve_websocket and I've even drafted two versions of an alternative protocol BWTP that has gained some interest: http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-wilkins-hybi-bwtp-00.txt http://bwtp.wikidot.com/ There are two implementations of BWTP available. I've got deployed comet services with millions of users and am happy to answer any questions asked about my experiences or comments expressed here. There has been plenty of support expressed on this list for the issues raised and plenty of other issues raised by others on this list as well. This is not hand waiving. >> Hence my strong words against the WHATWG process. It has disenfranchised a >> significant part of the internet community and is not addressing the concerns >> that are being raised. > > Now you have the opportunity to discuss these things under the IETF process. Go for it. Well perhaps you are correct. We should treat this a day 0 and start again and restate the problems, requirements etc. I do believe this is exactly the schedule outlined in the charter - which has now been questioned by the WHATWG. > It seems plausible that we may need a revision of the protocol down the line. But > I think that developing the two versions in two separate standards organizations, > and doing so simultaneously and without trying to agree together on the right > outcome, is not likely to lead to a coherent outcome. The WHATWG have not expressed any interest in further extending the protocol. They say their current goal is to achieve interoperability, which I assume means solving any ambiguities of misunderstandings of the current document. If that truly is their only current objective, then don't see a particular problem if the IETF moves forward with proposals/discussion/consideration of how to improve websocket to deal with issues like orderly close and idle timeouts. Of course coordination will be required and the whatwg need to be part of any consensus on new features. regards
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- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Maciej Stachowiak
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- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Ian Hickson
- [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Rob Sayre
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Ian Fette (イアンフェッティ)
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Ian Hickson
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- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Ian Fette (イアンフェッティ)
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… SM
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… SM
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Greg Wilkins
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- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Francis Brosnan Blazquez
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… SM
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Jamie Lokier
- [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Roberto Peon
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… SM
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Maciej Stachowiak
- [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (was R… Maciej Stachowiak
- [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Technic… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Greg Wilkins
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- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Maciej Stachowiak
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- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Maciej Stachowiak
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- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Greg Wilkins
- [hybi] Process, was: Technical feedback. was: Pro… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Process, was: Technical feedback. was:… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Process, was: Technical feedback. was:… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Process, was: Technical feedback. was:… SM
- Re: [hybi] Process, was: Technical feedback. was:… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Process, was: Technical feedback. was:… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Process, was: Technical feedback. was:… Greg Wilkins
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- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Maciej Stachowiak
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- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] Process! Ian Hickson
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- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Anne van Kesteren
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Maciej Stachowiak
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- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Process! SM
- Re: [hybi] Process! Ian Hickson
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- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Jamie Lokier
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- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Jamie Lokier
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- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Greg Wilkins
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- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Maciej Stachowiak
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