Re: [I18ndir] [Last-Call] last call reviews of draft-ietf-regext-epp-eai-12 (and -15)
"Gould, James" <jgould@verisign.com> Tue, 13 September 2022 19:19 UTC
Return-Path: <jgould@verisign.com>
X-Original-To: i18ndir@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: i18ndir@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85050C14CE34; Tue, 13 Sep 2022 12:19:32 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.41
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.41 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=verisign.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3YCsq30ROzTV; Tue, 13 Sep 2022 12:19:27 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail1.verisign.com (mail1.verisign.com [72.13.63.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DDA36C14CF00; Tue, 13 Sep 2022 12:19:20 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=verisign.com; l=8260; q=dns/txt; s=VRSN; t=1663096767; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:content-id: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=HNynolQSoQb/3VkSxiJMUY9aiugsRF2zORa5e3vIrYo=; b=f6FsVi2EgwMvECYdzNi4De/eZ9Q5imorLUQS2XUpPjFbvSIc6JaevAFp RpXwlac8pM910dmseLJl+keA0E2NtBoXWdb+nzVyg9QagJdldtLXUSEpE z+9TlVFLf1oFIsFZIThcbFVRKhAO7kZRiTHDfPQvc5oWVV4ZYwem/zRjd IR7545iG080o7y8RgWi8XeY04KvUmafw2C9aPZfBDlLj6MJf5REGwdiOu /28OcxV+xaBXc7//inXzi2dCPHdwSLfhPG+Py38ACjzGU0NXPrLw12pRs 72UDKOvwVL9kXSGTG+oi/R4tYJdJOKr75AB5Qrtf4WJIy5wlB8X1uVY8Y w==;
IronPort-Data: A9a23:2yEbaajUs3nBDniqWI+Ze7R/X161+REKZh0ujC45NGQN5FlHY01je htvXz+BO/zZYTf9KIonboS39R8Hu5PdxtdjSgI4pCo8FC0W8JqUDtmndUqhZCn6wu8v7q5Ex 55HNoSfdpBcolv0/ErF3m3J9CEkvU2wbuOgTrSCYkidfCc8IA85kxVvhuUltYBhhNm9Emult Mj7yyHlEAbNNwVcbyRFsMpvlDs15K6o4GJB5QRkDRx2lAS2e0c9Xcp3yZ6ZciOQrrl8RoaSW +vFxbelyWLVlz9F5gSNy+uTnuUiG9Y+DCDW4pZkc/HKbitq/0Te5p0G2M80Mi+7vR3Sxowsl 48d3XCHYVxB0qXkwIzxWjEGS30uZfUuFLXveRBTuuTLp6HKnueFL1yDwyjaMKVBktubD12i+ tRCCzYvUTXYwNi6nuK7Z/JU1vYEB5D0adZ3VnFIlVk1DN4Me7aafIPn1YcCmik7gdpWW//SI dQDcjwpZxPFC/FNEg5PTsthx6Hx2yK5L2wwRFG9/MLb50DRwwts1LTFLtfPe8eLSsMTlUGdz o7D1z6hX0hDbIbCodaD2i2mic2MmwzLY5oLKp6n0NRTq1i/+3NGXXX6UnP++5FVkHWWWdVfL QkV9zYghao59wqgSdyVdx+3p2OAsktAA8RdCewh6Q6LjKHT5i6VA2EeRXhAZcAo8sgsSlQC3 FKNk9boGRRgtbSUTTSW8bL8hSu7NwANJGEeaCQECxAIi/Hqup0bjx/TQJBkCqHdptHvED/sh jGHsCZ7nbgcgN4Xkqij5RXKijPqr5zNZg84+guRWXiqhit9bZW5Ioeh7Vzz7PtcIsCeVFbpl GIJlMWO8MgPAI2D0iuXT40lHej54fqEKhXdjEJhWZ47+FyF9HOlOIlK/Bl/KVtndMEedlfUj FT7sxlXvYBVMWvyN+psfZj3DsUxiKLnU97/UKmScMBVZN56cwrvEDxSWHN8FlvFyCAE+ZzT8 7/CGSpwJR720Zha8Qc=
IronPort-HdrOrdr: A9a23:Prgk4ahNCZvATuscgOkg+3nSoXBQXv4ji2hC6mlwRA09TyXBrb HNoBwavSWZtN6IMEtQ4uxoS5PwJE80kqQFm7X5XI3SJDUO11HJEGgP1+HfKl7balDDH4xmpM RdmsFFYbWaMbEQt6nHCXyDcurIt+PozEnHv4rjJjxWPGVXgulbnmBE4kzwKDwReOBpP+tBKK ah
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.93,313,1654560000"; d="scan'208";a="20511025"
Received: from BRN1WNEX01.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com (10.173.153.48) by BRN1WNEX02.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com (10.173.153.49) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.1.2375.31; Tue, 13 Sep 2022 15:19:10 -0400
Received: from BRN1WNEX01.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com ([10.173.153.48]) by BRN1WNEX01.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com ([10.173.153.48]) with mapi id 15.01.2375.031; Tue, 13 Sep 2022 15:19:10 -0400
From: "Gould, James" <jgould@verisign.com>
To: "john-ietf@jck.com" <john-ietf@jck.com>, "jgould=40verisign.com@dmarc.ietf.org" <jgould=40verisign.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "beldmit@gmail.com" <beldmit@gmail.com>
CC: "paf@paftech.se" <paf@paftech.se>, "art@ietf.org" <art@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-regext-epp-eai.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-regext-epp-eai.all@ietf.org>, "last-call@ietf.org" <last-call@ietf.org>, "regext@ietf.org" <regext@ietf.org>, "i18ndir@ietf.org" <i18ndir@ietf.org>, "gen-art@ietf.org" <gen-art@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Re: [Last-Call] last call reviews of draft-ietf-regext-epp-eai-12 (and -15)
Thread-Index: AQHYx6WzvGERprn3e0aTubS4CzqpIg==
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2022 19:19:10 +0000
Message-ID: <323A6F0C-4A54-44BB-8D86-178EFF00771F@verisign.com>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.64.22081401
x-originating-ip: [10.170.148.18]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-ID: <F7FAB14D0741C44984F4174D8E09C843@verisign.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
MIME-Version: 1.0
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/i18ndir/5lN6ekBU8uw1teE48dWOPxoqUbs>
Subject: Re: [I18ndir] [Last-Call] last call reviews of draft-ietf-regext-epp-eai-12 (and -15)
X-BeenThere: i18ndir@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39
Precedence: list
List-Id: Internationalization Directorate <i18ndir.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/i18ndir>, <mailto:i18ndir-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/i18ndir/>
List-Post: <mailto:i18ndir@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:i18ndir-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i18ndir>, <mailto:i18ndir-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2022 19:19:32 -0000
John, Again, thank you for your detailed layout of the issue. The current state of the draft-ietf-regext-epp-eai is to allow for either an ASCII or a SMTPUTF8 address for a set of EPP extensions that currently support a single required or optional ASCII e-mail address. Supporting an all-ASCII fallback address, means that the single e-mail address would need to shift from a one to two or even a one-to-many relationship across the EPP extensions along with the appropriate implicit or explicit signaling of the e-mail type, which is why it comes down to a protocol cardinality issue. This is a material change that needs further discussion in the REGEXT WG. I hope that you can participate in the discussion. Thanks, -- JG James Gould Fellow Engineer jgould@Verisign.com <applewebdata://13890C55-AAE8-4BF3-A6CE-B4BA42740803/jgould@Verisign.com> 703-948-3271 12061 Bluemont Way Reston, VA 20190 Verisign.com <http://verisigninc.com/> On 9/13/22, 3:04 PM, "John C Klensin" <john-ietf@jck.com> wrote: James, My apologies for not having responded to your note sooner. I've been preoccupied with several unrelated things. I greatly appreciate the changes to use an existing EPP extension framework and to correct the terminology error of EAI -> SMTPUTF8. I agree that the more substantive SMTPUTF8 technical issues should go back to the WG. However, in order that the discussion you suggest for IETF 115 be useful and not just lead to another round of heated Last Call discussions, I think that, for the benefit of those who have been following the discussion closely and those who should have been, it is important to be clear about what the disagreement is about. When you characterize the issue as "e-mail cardinality", it makes it sound, at least to me (maybe everyone in the WG has a better understanding) like this is some subtle technical matter. It really isn't. The EAI WG was very clear during the development of the SMTPUTF8 standards that the biggest problems with non-ASCII email addresses were going to be with user agents (MUAs) (and, to some degree, with IMAP and POP servers that are often modeled as part of MUAs) and not with SMTP transport over the Internet. Making an MUA tailored to one particular language and script (in addition to ASCII), or even a handful of them, is fairly easy. Making one that can deal well with all possible SMTPUTF8 addresses is very difficult (some would claim impossible, at least without per-language, or per-language-group, plugins or equivalent). The implication of that problem is that, except with rather specific constraints, fallback all-ASCII addresses are important. I'd be delighted to have a discussion about the types of constraints the would be needed, but every possibility involves a policy decision about DNS registration management and is hence out of IETF scope. I claim didn't take the EAI WG to figure the need for fallback addresses out: it gets fairly easy as soon as someone thinks about, e.g., how their favorite MUA would manage addresses, and potentially error messages, that use a relatively complex writing system that has not been in active, non-scholarly, use for millennia. This is why, unless non-ASCII email addresses are used strictly within a particular writing system environment (and restricted to those writing systems), it is strongly recommended that an all-ASCII email address be available as a fallback. As we have discussed, I am not suggesting such an address be required in any particular transaction any more than you are suggesting that registries be required to accept non-ASCII email addresses at all. Subject to whatever regulatory, contractual, or other constraints might apply, decisions about whether to allow (or encourage) such addresses, what constraints to impose on the scripts or domains that might be used in the addresses if any, and whether a all-ASCII address (or an all-ASCII local part) should be allowed or required in a particular transaction, is not a matter for the IETF. However, providing for the optional transmission of a non-ASCII address without providing for the optional transmission of an all-ASCII alternative is as much of a policy decision as trying to build rules about when non-ASCII addresses should be permitted would be. If the IETF (or at least REGEXT) believe that it is a good idea to provide for non-ASCII addresses, let's do that right. And "right" requires either provision for a an all-ASCII alternative or a globally agreed profile of what sorts of non-ASCII addresses are valid. It is not the sort of thing that can reasonably be ignored or postponed for future work, at least without creating back-door policy decisions and/or interoperability problems, or the IETF is willing to standardize a protocol with known serious deficiencies on the assumption that those "details" can be worked out later. thanks, john --On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 17:26 +0000 "Gould, James" <jgould=40verisign.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > John, > > draft-ietf-regext-epp-eai-16 was posted that addresses two of > the issues that you raised, by changing to use a > command-response extension, and to replace the EAI references > with SMTPUTF8. I believe the remaining issue of the e-mail > cardinality needs to be brought back to the REGEXT working > group for discussion. I've requested an agenda item at > IETF-115 for it and I encourage you to participate in the > meeting to discuss it first-hand if the agenda item is > accepted. > > Thank you for all your detailed feedback and discussion!
- Re: [I18ndir] [Last-Call] last call reviews of dr… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] [Last-Call] last call reviews of dr… Dmitry Belyavsky
- Re: [I18ndir] [Last-Call] last call reviews of dr… Gould, James
- Re: [I18ndir] [Last-Call] last call reviews of dr… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] [Last-Call] last call reviews of dr… Gould, James
- Re: [I18ndir] [Last-Call] last call reviews of dr… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] [Last-Call] last call reviews of dr… Dmitry Belyavsky
- Re: [I18ndir] [Last-Call] last call reviews of dr… Hollenbeck, Scott
- Re: [I18ndir] [Last-Call] last call reviews of dr… Gould, James
- Re: [I18ndir] [Last-Call] last call reviews of dr… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] [Last-Call] last call reviews of dr… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] [Last-Call] last call reviews of dr… Gould, James
- Re: [I18ndir] [Last-Call] last call reviews of dr… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] [Last-Call] last call reviews of dr… Gould, James
- Re: [I18ndir] [Last-Call] last call reviews of dr… Gould, James
- Re: [I18ndir] [Last-Call] last call reviews of dr… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] [Last-Call] last call reviews of dr… Gould, James
- Re: [I18ndir] [Last-Call] last call reviews of dr… Dmitry Belyavsky
- Re: [I18ndir] [Last-Call] last call reviews of dr… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] [Last-Call] last call reviews of dr… Василий Долматов
- Re: [I18ndir] [Last-Call] last call reviews of dr… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] [Last-Call] last call reviews of dr… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [I18ndir] [Last-Call] last call reviews of dr… Asmus Freytag