Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Fri, 21 June 2019 22:20 UTC
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Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 18:19:57 -0400
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: Pete Resnick <resnick@episteme.net>
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Subject: Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage
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Pete, I've read Barry's note, which seems entirely reasonable. As you (and I trust most other's here) have noticed, while waiting I did post a note to the IDNAbis list asking for review and feedback on the theory that, if anyone on that list but not on this one had something to say / contribute, we should listen. So far the silence has been deafening which I can interpret either as (i) everyone who is on that list and likely to do work is on this list and has been waiting for your note (and word from Barry, Alexey, or Adam) or (ii) we are in even bigger trouble than I assumed. More inline below. --On Friday, June 21, 2019 14:12 -0500 Pete Resnick <resnick@episteme.net> wrote: > [Copying the ADs, as their input is also necessary.] > > Before getting to your direct question, a followup on the > "restart and triage" bit: I only got 2 messages from folks who > wanted to do triage, and then promptly went on vacation (with > a longer-than-normal vacation interrupt latency on the > backend), so I haven't gotten a chance to individually harass > people who said some time ago that they would help out. That > harassment will start today. So hopefully we'll get on track > to do triage and regular reviews quickly. I hope so, but with the understanding that there is an interaction with the core documents in many (although certainly not all) potential reviews of non-I18n documents with i18n citations, dependencies, or other relationships. If they either reference IDNA or are dependent on IDNA's approach (probably including almost everything that depends on PRECIS) or contain any statements or logic that are sensitive to Unicode versions, the issues that motivated the documents that are more or less in the queue may affect them and be candidates for "known technical omissions". Unless the IESG is willing to simply blow off that provision of 2026 --which I hope and assume they would not if it were called to their attention for a particular document-- either the document being reviewed goes into a wait state until we clean up at least some of the i18n core mess or someone is going to have to write an explanation of the problem and why the document should progress without it. I'd assume that, in most cases, that "someone" would need to be one of us because there are not may other pockets of the relevant expertise. Perhaps that makes "triage" and "regular reviews" a little more complicated than you are anticipating. > But, as for your direct question: > > On 13 Jun 2019, at 20:38, John C Klensin wrote: > >> That brings me to a key question. Noting that the main reason >> for proposing the BOF that led to this directorate was to try >> to get work on core I18N, and especially IDNA, issues under >> control, my preference would be that the directorate take a >> look at the drafts mentioned above (and probably Asmus's work >> on troublesome characters, etc.) and make a recommendation to >> the ADs about how to handle them. An alternative would be >> for us to introduce the drafts on the IDNAbis WG mailing list >> and then pass them directly to the ADs with a request for AD >> sponsorship and, if needed, a short-term restart of that WG, >> which would get them to the directorate that way. There is >> a Plan C, but I'm quite confident that almost no one would >> like it. >> >> So, Glorious Leaders and other directorate participants, how >> would you like to proceed? > > So, first let's get together the full list of "core" documents > needing review in this group. From your message, I glean: > > draft-klensin-idna-unicode-review > draft-klensin-idna-architecture (to be published) > draft-klensin-idna-rfc5891bis (expired) > draft-freytag-troublesome-characters-02 (expired) Any of these (and those below) that have expired are expired because the ADs or directorate advised the the authors to let them expire. They are easily un-expired (and will be) when we are ready to cope with them. And I hope you mean "posted" and not "published". One step at a time. draft-klensin-idna-unicode-7-0-0. While I assumed when I wrote my earlier note that draft-klensin-idna-architecture would completely subsume its contents, it now appears to me that some of the discussion of specific issues (such as the non-decomposing character one) in draft-klensin-idna-unicode-7-0-0 belongs in a separate document. There may also be a document on the special properties of complex scripts (if we want it and can persuade Asmus to write it). > Did I miss anything? > > (I'm of course leaving aside draft-faltstrom-unicode12, which > is on Alexey's plate.) There are some potentially serious complications with it, most brought on by the passage of time while we've been waiting and others that might have slipped through it is had been handled quickly but are now hard (and probably improper) to ignore. That deserves a separate note (and probably thread)... forthcoming. > Do you think all of these need to be reviewed in parallel, or > can we subdivide the task? My inclination is to get a couple > of sets of eyeballs on each document and then discuss the > reviews on the list; I don't think we need to have a > free-for-all on all of the documents. Sure, if it is feasible. But several of these documents are dependent on others of them, either in the form of normative references or on assumptions or context that depend on approval of one or more of the others. So, it is not obvious to me that is feasible to separate and order them by document or, if it is, that we would just be trading a quicker review process for a confusing set of IETF Last Calls confusion to everyone paying attention, which might be null set when the people on this mailing are excluded) and documents parked with the RFC Editor in reference hold. I do think we could build a road map for people threading their way through the documents, but that would be a fair amount of work for someone and I don't think I'm going to volunteer. > (On that, and to reply to some of the other comments: Dealing > with these documents is **not at all** like a WG: In a WG, > documents are collectively developed and documented by the doc > editor, and by the time a document is done, we have a nice > history, whether it's on the mailing list, in github, or > whatever, of how decisions were made and why we have > consensus. This is very different: We have documents prepared > by individual experts and are trying to retrospectively review > them, looking for errors or editorial flubs to make sure the > document is ready to go. We want to get additional eyeballs on > the documents, but this is *not* a collective effort to create > these documents. That's OK, but that's also why it's so hard > to get focus. The purpose of the directorate IMO is to get > that focus.) Sorry, Pete, but that characterization of WG documents is, for many of them, somewhere between a fairy tale and wishful thinking. Too often, especially in recent years but even before that, a WG has started with a draft prepared entirely outside the IETF and done nothing but tune it a bit, a possibility that exists even with these i18n documents. Sometimes, WGs have been told that the protocol described by the documents that were prepared and largely completed before the WG started was already deployed and that any fundamental changes to that protocol were out of scope. Certainly we haven't had the latter here. In addition, there was considerable discussion -- as a group -- of what the requirements for IDNA review for new versions of Unicode were and should be while we were sorting through draft-faltstrom-unicode11 and draft-faltstrom-unicode12. I made notes, I believe Patrik made notes, probably other people made notes. I think that several of us assumed that those notes would be circulated, we'd discuss them, someone would volunteer or be appointed as document editor and we'd get something together and proceed -- not at all different from the way your idealized WG would work. That didn't happen that way. I can't speak for others, but I wanted to get draft-faltstrom-unicode12 behind us and was waiting for instructions from the co-chairs as to how they wanted to move forward. When neither happened --months after draft-faltstrom-unicode12-00 was posted and more than a month after your note-- I decided to put some words down, enlist Patrik, and get a draft posted. What do you think I/we should have done differently? > I'm inclined to hear what the ADs want out of this process as > well. For documents like this, my presumption is that you want > to hear a hum from the directorate that you're safe to AD > sponsor the document. Is that right? >... best, john
- [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage Pete Resnick
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage Marc Blanchet
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage Asmus Freytag
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage Asmus Freytag (c)
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage Patrik Fältström
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage Marc Blanchet
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage Pete Resnick
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage Barry Leiba
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage John Levine
- [I18ndir] draft-faltstrom-unicode12 (was: Re: Get… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] draft-faltstrom-unicode12 (was: Re:… Patrik Fältström
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage Asmus Freytag
- Re: [I18ndir] draft-faltstrom-unicode12 (was: Re:… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] draft-faltstrom-unicode12 Asmus Freytag
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage John R Levine
- [I18ndir] Civility (Was: Getting restarted and tr… Pete Resnick
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage Asmus Freytag (c)