Re: [I18ndir] I18ndir last call review of draft-ietf-regext-dnrd-objects-mapping-06
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Fri, 06 March 2020 17:45 UTC
Return-Path: <john-ietf@jck.com>
X-Original-To: i18ndir@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: i18ndir@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEEFD3A0C00 for <i18ndir@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 09:45:24 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xLFp_qrHoAHR for <i18ndir@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 09:45:23 -0800 (PST)
Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D9E353A0BFD for <i18ndir@ietf.org>; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 09:45:22 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from <john-ietf@jck.com>) id 1jAH2F-0006MF-Ml; Fri, 06 Mar 2020 12:45:19 -0500
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2020 12:45:13 -0500
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: "Hollenbeck, Scott" <shollenbeck=40verisign.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
cc: asmusf@ix.netcom.com, i18ndir@ietf.org
Message-ID: <4AA3DB653204B1B1EBB8B1E7@PSB>
In-Reply-To: <364f4ce4ca0d4ed7a95446169655e1cd@verisign.com>
References: <158343520135.15044.10991712449156105132@ietfa.amsl.com> <9CD56DEFBC9108D9620ED61E@PSB> <2cb9e78f-32dc-3e2f-ba1a-6ae0218f3ef9@ix.netcom.com> <78B490AE833098E23541E672@PSB> <b10e418c-aa00-669d-68cf-03bb0ef0920b@ix.netcom.com> <19196892ADC7F5919DA7CE7A@PSB> <3e6d3b2bf0f241dfb161a0497e762bf3@verisign.com> <e54f23f8-aee5-e0f0-5acd-ebb86ddcc181@ix.netcom.com> <364f4ce4ca0d4ed7a95446169655e1cd@verisign.com>
X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10
X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com
X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/i18ndir/HEr3YGEB9N-lbpf0cAveEfRuiNY>
Subject: Re: [I18ndir] I18ndir last call review of draft-ietf-regext-dnrd-objects-mapping-06
X-BeenThere: i18ndir@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Internationalization Directorate <i18ndir.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/i18ndir>, <mailto:i18ndir-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/i18ndir/>
List-Post: <mailto:i18ndir@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:i18ndir-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i18ndir>, <mailto:i18ndir-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2020 17:45:25 -0000
Scott, But that takes us full circle and into a set of problems that are not I18N issues are all. Given the number of times we have actually had: (1) A registry go out of business or been forced out by ICANN, and (2) The registry replaced by another one, and (3) These files used to populate the files for the new registry. ... It is hard to argue that there has been extensive operational experience (and so I appreciate your use of "supposedly". And, while ICANN has run some tests to simulate such actions, there have been, as you presumably, considerable suspicion that there tests have been somewhat perfunctory. Again, "supposedly". In addition, if the only entities who care about this data format and supporting protocols are ICANN, ICANN Contracted Parties, and other ICANN-dependent entities, it takes us back to my long-term concern about the REGEXT work and its boundaries: if the real criteria for efforts like this document are that it works for ICANN (however ICANN defines "works") then what is the value of having the IETF involved? Clearly, the work gets better, and broader, review than ICANN could get without spending money on expert reviewers and probably authors. But, despite occasional claims to the contrary, ICANN is not in a state of poverty in which it could not afford those efforts if they considered them important. >From an IETF standpoint, volunteer time that goes into this sort of effort is time that is taken away from things that are arguably more critical. As a very specific pair of examples, this directorate has a core IDNA document in AUTH48, draft-klensin-idna-unicode-review, that I haven't been able to spend time on in the last few days because Marc's review had to be prioritized so that any necessary revisions could get into the LC process before the, IIR, 9 March cutoff. not clear to me that is the right optimization for IETF or the Internet. best, john --On Friday, March 6, 2020 17:05 +0000 "Hollenbeck, Scott" <shollenbeck=40verisign.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > It is what it is, Asmus. I'm not so sure that it is, in > fact, critical. ICANN has supposedly been using this archive > format for years with no interoperational issues. > > > > Scott > > > > From: I18ndir <i18ndir-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Asmus > Freytag Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 11:52 AM > To: i18ndir@ietf.org > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [I18ndir] I18ndir last call review of > draft-ietf-regext-dnrd-objects-mapping-06 > > > > As I read the W#C document, "NormalizedString" is not an > actual format, other than that it disallows all line endings > and tab. > > > > There are parameters for how to normalize remaining > whitespace, but without specifying which parameters are set. > It's like calling a string "Unicode normalized" and not > knowing from that term whether it's in NFC, NFD, NFKC or NFKD. > > > > In the W3C these are enumerated as part of the "constraining > facets" listed in 3.3.1.1 > > > > For an archival format, then, either each field has attributes > that give these facets, as applicable, or the format itself > needs to require particular settings. > > > > None of that, by the way, speaks in any way about casefolding > or Unicode normalization, the kinds of operations that are > critical in identifier contexts. > > > > A./ > > > > > > On 3/6/2020 7:55 AM, Hollenbeck, Scott wrote: > > Note below on the draft's reference to the XML Schema > normalizedString data type: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: I18ndir > <i18ndir-bounces@ietf.org><mailto:i18ndir-bounces@ietf.org> On > Behalf Of John C Klensin Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 > 10:46 AM > To: Asmus Freytag (c) > <asmusf@ix.netcom.com><mailto:asmusf@ix.netcom.com>; > i18ndir@ietf.org<mailto:i18ndir@ietf.org> Subject: > [EXTERNAL] Re: [I18ndir] I18ndir last call review of > draft-ietf-regext- dnrd-objects-mapping-06 > > > > [snip] > > > [1] I am not familiar enough with the Regext set of > documents to know if "normalizedString" is defined > somewhere. Certainly, > draft-ietf-regext-dnrd-objects-mapping-06 uses it without > defining it locally or providing a specific normative > reference to such definitions. At minimum, this > suggests another problem with the I-D that may need fixing. > But, if there is not a clear definition -- if the > instruction for what should go into those fields is > essentially "just normalize", than that is obviously bad news. > It is bad news even for IDN U-labels because a string > in, e.g., NFC would not conform to the requirements for > U-labels. Normal IETF and RFC practice requires a > statement, probably in the Terminology section and probably > with a normative reference, to where definitions of that > and other attributes can be found. > > > Reference here: > > https://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#normalizedString > > The draft should include a normative reference to the W3C > XML Schema specification: > > http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-xmlschema-2-20041028 > > Scott > > > >
- [I18ndir] I18ndir last call review of draft-ietf-… Marc Blanchet via Datatracker
- Re: [I18ndir] I18ndir last call review of draft-i… Barry Leiba
- Re: [I18ndir] I18ndir last call review of draft-i… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] I18ndir last call review of draft-i… Marc Blanchet
- Re: [I18ndir] I18ndir last call review of draft-i… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] I18ndir last call review of draft-i… Asmus Freytag
- Re: [I18ndir] I18ndir last call review of draft-i… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] I18ndir last call review of draft-i… Patrik Fältström
- Re: [I18ndir] I18ndir last call review of draft-i… Asmus Freytag (c)
- Re: [I18ndir] I18ndir last call review of draft-i… Marc Blanchet
- Re: [I18ndir] I18ndir last call review of draft-i… Marc Blanchet
- Re: [I18ndir] I18ndir last call review of draft-i… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] I18ndir last call review of draft-i… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] I18ndir last call review of draft-i… Hollenbeck, Scott
- Re: [I18ndir] I18ndir last call review of draft-i… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] I18ndir last call review of draft-i… Asmus Freytag (c)
- Re: [I18ndir] I18ndir last call review of draft-i… Asmus Freytag
- Re: [I18ndir] I18ndir last call review of draft-i… Asmus Freytag
- Re: [I18ndir] I18ndir last call review of draft-i… Asmus Freytag
- Re: [I18ndir] I18ndir last call review of draft-i… Hollenbeck, Scott
- Re: [I18ndir] I18ndir last call review of draft-i… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] I18ndir last call review of draft-i… Pete Resnick
- Re: [I18ndir] I18ndir last call review of draft-i… Asmus Freytag (c)
- Re: [I18ndir] I18ndir last call review of draft-i… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] I18ndir last call review of draft-i… Asmus Freytag (c)
- Re: [I18ndir] I18ndir last call review of draft-i… Hollenbeck, Scott
- Re: [I18ndir] I18ndir last call review of draft-i… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] I18ndir last call review of draft-i… Pete Resnick
- Re: [I18ndir] I18ndir last call review of draft-i… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] I18ndir last call review of draft-i… Marc Blanchet
- [I18ndir] I18NDIR advice and process (was: Re: I1… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] I18NDIR advice and process (was: Re… Pete Resnick
- Re: [I18ndir] I18NDIR advice and process Asmus Freytag
- Re: [I18ndir] I18NDIR advice and process (was: Re… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] I18NDIR advice and process (was: Re… Pete Resnick