Re: [I18ndir] Working Group Last Call: Structured Headers for HTTP
John C Klensin <john@jck.com> Tue, 04 February 2020 16:27 UTC
Return-Path: <john@jck.com>
X-Original-To: i18ndir@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: i18ndir@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C712512082A for <i18ndir@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 4 Feb 2020 08:27:16 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NLNwWrLgD6CE for <i18ndir@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 4 Feb 2020 08:27:15 -0800 (PST)
Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 83689120289 for <i18ndir@ietf.org>; Tue, 4 Feb 2020 08:27:15 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from <john@jck.com>) id 1iz12b-000MCV-MR; Tue, 04 Feb 2020 11:27:09 -0500
Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2020 11:27:04 -0500
From: John C Klensin <john@jck.com>
To: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com>, Patrik Fältström <patrik@frobbit.se>
cc: i18ndir@ietf.org
Message-ID: <47AEE7D582019051ACF36647@PSB>
In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.2.21.99999.374.2002041007110.33467@ary.qy>
References: <20200203173404.88EE813AA055@ary.qy> <E2361F8BA970A15043416C2D@PSB> <alpine.OSX.2.21.99999.374.2002031653540.31381@ary.qy> <D03AE38116EF15538E10CFAF@PSB> <7D31FE0A-D4EC-4096-83FE-97D2BF4908F5@frobbit.se> <alpine.OSX.2.21.99999.374.2002041007110.33467@ary.qy>
X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline
X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10
X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john@jck.com
X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/i18ndir/KQqjpmwXJ0zWBxfIqUSdwlfhdJ4>
Subject: Re: [I18ndir] Working Group Last Call: Structured Headers for HTTP
X-BeenThere: i18ndir@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Internationalization Directorate <i18ndir.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/i18ndir>, <mailto:i18ndir-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/i18ndir/>
List-Post: <mailto:i18ndir@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:i18ndir-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i18ndir>, <mailto:i18ndir-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2020 16:27:17 -0000
--On Tuesday, February 4, 2020 10:08 -0500 John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote: > On Tue, 4 Feb 2020, Patrik Fältström wrote: >>> And omission of a clear model for specifying what is really >>> what we call a "charset" elsewhere (not just an encoding) is >>> the one clear defect in that particular discussion in the >>> document. >> >> Don't forget normalization or otherwise how comparison is to >> be done of the UTF-8 encoded characters in the string. >> Nothing about that either. > > NFC is specific to UTF-8. MIME doesn't have that as far as I > know so I don't think it makes sense here. Huh? NFC is certainly specific to Unicode, but there is nothing specific to UTF-8 (or any other encoding form) about it. My highly abstracted (but I hope not far off the mark) view of Patrik's comments is that, if one is going to compare or sort strings --or do much else with them other than maybe displaying them -- is that one needs a plan other than the equivalent of "just use UTF-8". Fairly recent W3C discussions, a few around ICANN, and comments in TUS about script-specific or language-specific rendering, strongly suggest that a more specific plan is needed even to display strings reasonably in some scripts and circumstances. Note that this is another example of a situation in which the problem exists even with basic Latin characters and moving beyond them just makes the situation more important or worse or the examples more dramatic. The obvious case involves sorting strings into alphabetic order: one has to decide what to do about case mapping or ordering, what to do about spaces or other punctuation, and so on. Where Patrik and I disagree (if we disagree at all - I may have misread his intent) is whether this particular document needs to say anything on the subject or anything beyond "definitions for individual header fields need to include an analysis and guidance for those issues". I also think that, in our capacity of giving advice to the ART ADs, there is an important lesson here and that is that _any_ document that even hints at non-ASCII characters, even if the hint is nothing more than "don't do that unless you have to" MUST get serious review by experts in i18n issues, not just the WG that happens to be writing the spec. That, in turn, almost certainly implies the need for an organized and functioning directorate, not just one to which one of those on the list can post a note (as Martin did) and hope for responses from the usual suspects. Or, if they can't make such a directorate work, either some other plan to accomplish the same thing or explicit acknowledgment that IETF work on these is not getting sufficient, and sufficiently skilled, review to be trusted. Watch for what may be a more complicated example soon. john
- [I18ndir] Fwd: Working Group Last Call: Structure… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [I18ndir] Fwd: Working Group Last Call: Struc… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] Fwd: Working Group Last Call: Struc… John Levine
- Re: [I18ndir] Fwd: Working Group Last Call: Struc… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] Fwd: Working Group Last Call: Struc… John R Levine
- Re: [I18ndir] Fwd: Working Group Last Call: Struc… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] Fwd: Working Group Last Call: Struc… John R Levine
- Re: [I18ndir] Fwd: Working Group Last Call: Struc… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] Working Group Last Call: Structured… Patrik Fältström
- Re: [I18ndir] Working Group Last Call: Structured… John R Levine
- Re: [I18ndir] Working Group Last Call: Structured… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] Working Group Last Call: Structured… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] Working Group Last Call: Structured… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] Working Group Last Call: Structured… John R Levine
- Re: [I18ndir] Working Group Last Call: Structured… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] Working Group Last Call: Structured… Patrik Fältström
- Re: [I18ndir] Working Group Last Call: Structured… Patrik Fältström
- Re: [I18ndir] Working Group Last Call: Structured… John R Levine
- Re: [I18ndir] Working Group Last Call: Structured… Patrik Fältström
- Re: [I18ndir] Working Group Last Call: Structured… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] Working Group Last Call: Structured… Patrik Fältström
- Re: [I18ndir] Working Group Last Call: Structured… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] Working Group Last Call: Structured… Patrik Fältström
- Re: [I18ndir] Working Group Last Call: Structured… John R Levine
- Re: [I18ndir] Working Group Last Call: Structured… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] Working Group Last Call: Structured… Asmus Freytag
- [I18ndir] Fwd: Re: Working Group Last Call: Struc… Asmus Freytag
- Re: [I18ndir] Fwd: Re: Working Group Last Call: S… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] Fwd: Re: Working Group Last Call: S… Asmus Freytag (c)
- Re: [I18ndir] Fwd: Re: Working Group Last Call: S… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] Fwd: Re: Working Group Last Call: S… Asmus Freytag (c)