IETF Logo Mail Archive

Re: [I18ndir] [art] Modern Network Unicode

"Asmus Freytag (c)" <asmusf@ix.netcom.com> Thu, 11 July 2019 15:51 UTC

Return-Path: <asmusf@ix.netcom.com>
X-Original-To: i18ndir@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: i18ndir@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3908312028F for <i18ndir@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 08:51:24 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.999
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ix.netcom.com; domainkeys=pass (2048-bit key) header.from=asmusf@ix.netcom.com header.d=ix.netcom.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SxUbEpGKOIsU for <i18ndir@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 08:51:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A501F1202CC for <i18ndir@ietf.org>; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 08:51:13 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ix.netcom.com; s=dk12062016; t=1562860273; bh=lVSE9CpoGpl7CcAa6lzq/6FYyjEBHG0tpn27 swk6zPw=; h=Received:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Message-ID:Date: User-Agent:MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Language: X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; b=CX4aD93DaknJNo8bGWE/JHQug9Ws/Cfvo oc7lSyCfhtG8vYz536njt5tmMLmxQB84DSbe9FP90+P3DqB89skWzYMH3QKL61G9t2e hd1NcqGQgDSMzVKymkoZX2Epg46rrIV7T0pWpcHUbBukUYKZkV7fiX5uVvyb3vDaEZA DhPALIbpl9wNalQ18Zxl04Ity9YaL0K5X7M8Gzbe8dFaP1LqbjSUDDvuSjMm60ab2Dy XQhu+yTqQP6sdRzB5sNG/1wAKS0eM8zts0DCm/ZNo55DM0VkqbmczaD/gYRBsEr9WN2 TMxw3+mMGdknvZq/3IxDewgMkfnZn5P6lfOxOoATg==
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk12062016; d=ix.netcom.com; b=Sf+E/aRRiB2fYVWEWvvAjwWXYdUFGR+rB2oSVa4wiKuoe11VHDIaVNnKj1mmu6M2KzO4JX4iqKLff0zNu3E0z+h4kk7kPwgXqB1a1I2XwcbyykDhid/woxTCdVa8JWGsGpYwORudxdXAzliBCPKjg8TNvG+PQRlp1cF6UXyXTyjQWzMYe5XYL+ltcor7mqQIjmm1fb18TIYq/G2Gv88xFdxzsL/xK64iDSj/+t0zily0HL9MaRiGCr6GG/jxDGV0JcgVG5RBqUaykLrOURwfSMWk57Bn6KqiET88zbaJBsEgunQIZFR6eUfE4skrTtCuToXeansVuB7FVCdTml/9uQ==; h=Received:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Message-ID:Date:User-Agent:MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Language:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP;
Received: from [71.212.14.180] (helo=[192.168.0.5]) by elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4) (envelope-from <asmusf@ix.netcom.com>) id 1hlbLk-000Bvo-9p; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 11:51:12 -0400
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
Cc: i18ndir@ietf.org
References: <0A5251342D480BA6437F7549@PSB> <B243365E-F7C5-4C53-A64F-2E3E87C4CD66@tzi.org> <248A8DD5DA0D3D34D6B6EFC9@PSB> <213ae024-b819-4f56-6e37-0cd53eb566c9@ix.netcom.com> <D921117F-BA9E-430B-8287-06D15248E1B7@tzi.org>
From: "Asmus Freytag (c)" <asmusf@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <90f8f2b5-ff3d-f9f1-860c-ae4d43f92c81@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 08:51:25 -0700
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <D921117F-BA9E-430B-8287-06D15248E1B7@tzi.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------C07EDA1834F1A86011069F0E"
Content-Language: en-US
X-ELNK-Trace: 464f085de979d7246f36dc87813833b27dfed51d21846668a8ec762575bf0fe6de3591711c759ecd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c
X-Originating-IP: 71.212.14.180
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/i18ndir/P125_hj3Tb56g3PX2Z_f3JB4PSQ>
Subject: Re: [I18ndir] [art] Modern Network Unicode
X-BeenThere: i18ndir@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Internationalization Directorate <i18ndir.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/i18ndir>, <mailto:i18ndir-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/i18ndir/>
List-Post: <mailto:i18ndir@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:i18ndir-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i18ndir>, <mailto:i18ndir-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 15:51:24 -0000

On 7/11/2019 12:03 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> On Jul 11, 2019, at 01:00, Asmus Freytag <asmusf@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> There are a few scripts where un-normalized text is "preferred" by the user community over NFC. In some cases, the most natural ordering of combining marks does not match NFC's canonical ordering. I other cases, NFC does not compose some sequences while local user communities strongly prefer the precomposed code points (e.g. Bengali).
> Interesting.  There are also a few writing systems where NFC is what is strongly preferred by the user community.
>
> Is there any effort to capture these preferences in a formal way so they become more accessible to international developer communities?

No. Note least because these preferences may not be stable over 
(longish) periods of time as they depend a bit on what keyboards / 
rendering platforms and apps handle best today.

A./

>
>> Those scripts would be an exception to John’s statement: " NFC is also a close approximation to what any sensible terminal driver or IME is going to produce natively from a plausible keyboard layout for the relevant script", a statement that otherwise holds well.
> Right.  It is interesting to see how Apple recently moved from a normalizing file system (HFS+ was normalizing [to NFD unfortunately, and using UTF-16 on disk]) to a normalization-preserving, normalize-before-comparison (“normalization-insensitive”) file system (APFS).  It is also interesting how the problem is “solved” in applications such as git (core.precomposeunicode needs to be set to true on platforms that tend to generate non-NFC names so other platforms can pretend to stay blissfully unaware).
>
> Grüße, Carsten
>

v2.23.0 | Report a Bug | By Email