Re: [I18ndir] Review volunteer needed (Fwd: [dispatch] WGLC of draft-ietf-dispatch-javascript-mjs-07)

Asmus Freytag <> Fri, 01 May 2020 18:56 UTC

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From: Asmus Freytag <>
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Subject: Re: [I18ndir] Review volunteer needed (Fwd: [dispatch] WGLC of draft-ietf-dispatch-javascript-mjs-07)
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On 4/30/2020 7:54 PM, John C Klensin wrote:
> --On Thursday, April 30, 2020 21:58 -0400 John R Levine
> <> wrote:
>>> In terms of what draft-ietf-dispatch-javascript-mjs should
>>> say, there are two  disjoint paths we can decide to follow.
>>> The IETF can either document a  fantasy world of platonic
>>> solids that we all wish existed, which would have  virtually
>>> no practical application to implementors; or the IETF can
>>> document  the world as it exists today, warts and all, with
>>> decades of baked-in  unfortunate implementation decisions,
>>> and enable actual interoperability.
>> I don't think we're asking for ideologically pure documents,
>> but this draft could use a lot of rewriting to say what it
>> needs to say more clearly.  The "goal" stuff is particularly
>> obtuse, and I say this as a guy who's written books on parsing
>> tools.
>> If it is indeed the case that a lot of javascript mislabels
>> the charset and you have to sniff the BOMs, so be it.  But
>> surely we can limit the scope of awfulness, e.g., is anything
>> mislabeled as other than UTF-8 or UTF-16?
> Although John and I still disagree on some details, +1.


> And, as a small step toward ideological purity, if, in practice,
> no one pays attention to what appears in the charset parameter
> value, then why not either drop that parameter, say explicitly
> that it is likely to be ignored, or see if a registration of
> 'charset="IDontHaveAClue"' would make it past Ned and Martin.
> Not sure I'm serious about that, but you get the point.
> Adam, the gulf between ideological purity and matching reality
> isn't, IMO, quite as large as you portray it.   A
> standards-track document that says "this is really how it should
> be done but, if you, or those sending stuff to you, are going to
> ignore that, this is what you should do to avoid nasty
> interoperability problems and traps" should make us all a bit
> uncomfortable, but is still lots better than convoluted text
> that ends up amounting to "Do what thou wilt" (and that is not a
> comment about this I-D in particular).
> And Postel was (and presumably still would be if he were around)
> horrified by the idea that the robustness principle would be
> interpreted as "as the sender, I get to do whatever I
> <obscenity> feel like and it is up to the receiver to compensate
> and Do What I Meant".
> best,
>      john