Re: [I18ndir] Writing direction

Patrik Fältström <patrik@frobbit.se> Wed, 18 May 2022 05:01 UTC

Return-Path: <patrik@frobbit.se>
X-Original-To: i18ndir@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: i18ndir@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A39A6C15EB28 for <i18ndir@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 17 May 2022 22:01:42 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=frobbit.se
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id al7ZnrHBCzkO for <i18ndir@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 17 May 2022 22:01:38 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail.frobbit.se (mail.frobbit.se [85.30.129.176]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7849C15E6DC for <i18ndir@ietf.org>; Tue, 17 May 2022 22:01:38 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.131.24] (h-155-4-15-233.A163.priv.bahnhof.se [155.4.15.233]) by mail.frobbit.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D7F5A21CF1; Wed, 18 May 2022 07:01:22 +0200 (CEST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=frobbit.se; s=mail; t=1652850082; bh=Kmhjn5UASqhWJ3mCj2wpN9jeGqp/hwZzQfCUUzf7nKw=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=DlRFngwFcZsGj2X4TZOAIXVXEEW+JwQvoWn1WZjR8m60v3c7yf3EIE0SRuYQoo5QB FETsWls9OqPbEqEqVzNychBQQVUX2RgRX5snbvPFvyAjloj5CGzxs1Dt/FCDzuP+Jb 9u3XPrRgtqiQye+mIP3yMqXJRa8MxshSl2k3yrc4=
From: Patrik Fältström <patrik@frobbit.se>
To: Asmus Freytag <asmusf@ix.netcom.com>
Cc: John C Klensin <john@jck.com>, i18ndir@ietf.org
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 07:01:21 +0200
X-Mailer: MailMate (1.14r5895)
Message-ID: <E17DC567-BD8E-4FE8-B47E-794179C43C71@frobbit.se>
In-Reply-To: <37ee7c5d-2c30-1c1a-11ac-f41357480928@ix.netcom.com>
References: <4C4A249559BA1E86B17E53FE@PSB> <D59F50F7-A266-48F3-AA78-DA46023033BD@frobbit.se> <39F2CBAA1F19DB765CC59369@PSB> <6e8cd035-230f-0603-f45e-1328c673aa5e@ix.netcom.com> <3AFFCCCBA004CBCB2D4CAA11@PSB> <37ee7c5d-2c30-1c1a-11ac-f41357480928@ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=_MailMate_9A7B9476-5A3A-4EC6-8B03-91A280CCDD0D_="; micalg="pgp-sha512"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/i18ndir/aPE8WZ9siaRqxxSkYXSk9jiQq-c>
Subject: Re: [I18ndir] Writing direction
X-BeenThere: i18ndir@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.34
Precedence: list
List-Id: Internationalization Directorate <i18ndir.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/i18ndir>, <mailto:i18ndir-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/i18ndir/>
List-Post: <mailto:i18ndir@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:i18ndir-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i18ndir>, <mailto:i18ndir-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 05:01:42 -0000

On 18 May 2022, at 3:59, Asmus Freytag wrote:

> In this context it's instructive that CSS has
>
> 1. direction (rtl/ltr)
>
> 2. writing-mode (horizontal, vertical,  etc.)
>
> 3. text-orientation (glyphs rotated or not)

I see the discussion, and why we are worried about "only" 2-dimensionality, but, I would strongly separate "free text" from "rendering". If you talk about "sending something where the sender is to decide how things is to be rendered" then I claim it is no longer free text, but formatted text, and then yes, we have HTML+CSS and/or postscript, PDF/A stuff or even images.

So maybe the root cause of this discussion is what the intention really is with "free text" and we I18N people try to 2nd guess whoever want this protocol parameter?

If I want to read up on what the definition and use case is for this, what should I read?

Sorry for coming late to the dinner.

   Patrik